whats the frequency keneth?

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Freudian Slip

Freudian Slip

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I am working on a mix and the kick is giving me problems.
I know all the garbage in garbage aout stuff. I have a good mic, descent placement and all that. I did add very a bit of low end on the input and pulled a bit of mid (around 500 Hz).

My prblem is that It sounds pretty good and feels very nice on a decent stereo but in you cheap stuff the bass drum goes away.
Let me try to explain. The feel is great but that is all there is. when you put it on a crap stereo it goes away.

My question is, is there a "magic" frequency that will bring it to life on a stereo that will not produce 50-200 hz worth a crap.
I am mixing with a 4 chanel parametric, fully adjustable. Is there a area I can boost that is cheap stereo freindly?

I do not have a good set of monitors yet. so I spend a lot of time running out to the typical stock stereo in the ford explorer and taking notes. It sounds good there. It still seems to be all feel though no punch.

If you can at all understand what I mean I would love your input.

Thanks

Freudian Slip

www.mp3.com/freudian_slip1
 
well.....if you run a reference CD in these "cheapo" stereos, does it have bass in your face? Odds are no....I know plenty of stereos (my reference boombox for example) that barely have any ooomph. Something you gotta try and learn on before you get those phatty monitors (which may not pump the bass drum as much as you'd like either.......). You'll want to boost the mids around the 3-4 KHz area. This may help bring out the kick in the cheapo stereos, while also helping the punch factor (instead of feel) on the bigger speaks.

Peace, love, and chicken,
Mike
 
Just what I was looking for.

I will try your suggestion. This is exactly what I was looking for advice wise. Like I said I know I need to invest. I just layed down $4000.00 for what I have to have. I bought first rate on all of that (I hope).I'd rather do that and wait to get the monitors than cheese on everything.


Thank you very much.
I'll let you know how it goes.

Freudian Slip

www.mp3.com/freudian_slip1
 
I usually mic kick drums with a signal path that cost about $2400, and mix it on a $10,000 dollar mixer, using a $3000 dollar monitoring system. $15,000 or gear (oh, the studio actually has about $100,000 worth of gear.....), and sometimes, I just realized afterwards that there were too many other problems in the mix that were "masking" the kick drum.

I suspect that you could possibly use a bit of compression on that puppy. 500Hz is not the end all frequency to cut a kick drum at. Sometimes, you have to go lower, like 250Hz and boost a bit of the low shelf. A bit of a boost at around 3-4KHz helps a bit too.

Good luck.

Ed
 
Tube dude

What did I get? Well in the last few months I built a computer just for this. It is not the best that can be had now but you know how that goes. It is a 1ghz p3 with 256 ram, 60 gig hard drive (wish it was a scuzi) and all the crap to go along. Case, mother board, ect.

Next I searched for sound cards. I talked to a pro studio guy I know. It was between a MOTU and a echo layla 24. I went with the layla 24. It just seemed more PC oriented. Then I got Cake walk pro 9.0 suite, with FX1,2 and 3 (now sonar is out). I landed on cake walk because I figured it was so mainstream it would have all kinds of suport (not so true). I am pretty happy with the software but am now wondering about Pro tools.?.?

Next I bought a sure drum mic kit with 1 beta 52 and 3 sm-57 mics and all the clamps, wich I must say are about the best clamps I have seen. I bought a pair od AkG K240df flat response studio monitor head phones and a pair of $70.00 AKG head phones to get the drumer by.

Beyond this it is mostly misc. stuff to get the headphones threw threw the wall as well as the snake and what not.

At this point what I need most in my opinion is #1 a great condensor mic for vocals. 5 more sets of headphones, a head phone amp, and a good set of studio monitor speakers.

I have the amps and what not. and enough outboard gear to pull of a 300 to 400 person out door show. but that is about it.

So I suffer. I wil more that likely get a good studio vocal mic before the monitors. I would rather run around to assorted stereos than deal with the the live vocal mics I am using now.

I lust for monitors but have higher prioritys. They won't help the signal going to the hard drive like a good mic.

Thanks Guys
David Epperly

www.mp3.com/freudian_slip1
 
Not using the SM 52 for kick drum is part of your answer on the kick drum. That is a pretty muddy sounding mic. I usually use a EV RE-27 n/d for kick, and it just has "that sound", especially through the Oram with it's superior sounding eq I can apply going to tape. A little limiting so as not to kill the A/D converters, and vola! You have a very up front, fat sounding kick drum that don't need much eq at all during mix, nor compression if the drummer is solid in hitting.

Ed
 
Hmmm

I was lead to belive that a Beta 52 was a pretty good mic ar at least better than the AKG d112. I was also warned it was harder to work with at the same time. Like It was harder to get a really bad sound with the akg than the shure but that the oposit was also true. The shure had the ability to sound better than the akg but was less forgiving. This is one place I was on a budget. So it was a bang for buck purchase and I liked scoring 3 sm-57s with the package rather than some of the less versitile mics that come with other pakages.


Any way thanks for your opinion.

Freudian Slip

www.mp3.com/freudian_slip1
 
I'd never favor the sure over the AKG but.

A key thing to realise (and a mistake most people make) is to think kickdrum sound exists in a narrow low frequency band - it definately does not.

If you do not hear your kick on cheapass systems, that will be because such systems do not transmit lower frequencies, very often they are dead well before 80Hz.
So - it is very likely that your kick sound exists only at 80 and below, and is simply not very much "there" above it.

First thing to do is re-visit the kick, solo it and shelve everything below 80, see what you have left.
Boost an tighten what you have there, then feed your bass in to ensure the bass an kick are in a harmonic balance. Then feed you low kick back in.

You might find making the kick exist above 80 to 100 will completely change the balance of your entire mix, but so what - re-do it.

The above is the reason why I never record a kick with one mic. While standard kick mics are designed to capture a low frequency sound well, they fall of much to soon at higher frequencies. I therefore use at minimum a kick mic at a traditional front position, in addition to a broad range mic aimed at the hammer impact area, either inside or from the rear of the kick. Very often I'll use a third mic as well, and on top of that a trigger, so if I am not happy with the sound in the mix, I have complete flexibility.
 
Very good advise and pointers sjoko2! When the client has the budget I too like 2 mics and a trigger too! Creates many more possibilities at mix time. Of course, with the trigger, you need a module with some great quality soungs too.

I find myself eqing kick drums a lot less these days for the very reason sjoko2 stated about all the sound being below 80Hz and above around 2KHz. Like most stuff, it is important to record a well balanced sound to tape, as eq tends to start mucking things up in a hurry. Some compression though can really help tames things on the kick drum, and give it a bit more "duration" with a flatter sound.

On another note, kick drums and snare are SOOOOOOOO genre dependent, and each genre has "tricks" that work better than others. It is impossible to discuss all the possibilities that exist for kick and snare sounds. Experience rules here! You gotta do it wrong SEVERAL times to force you to try different things....:)

Ed
 
I forgot to add that our very own Shailat has a very good article on mixing drums. The article includes audio examples of before and after processing and EQ. Check it out:

http:www.geocities.com/shailat2000

Click on the Mixing Drums link.

Ed
 
Just a footnote to the above, I never EQ any drum or percussion mic going to tape.
 
Mic it right and you'll need very little eq. Spend a day just moving mics around a drums set and recording a snip, listen, and move some more. It'll be well worth the time!
 
Wallycleaver said:
Mic it right and you'll need very little eq. Spend a day just moving mics around a drums set and recording a snip, listen, and move some more. It'll be well worth the time!
Click to expand...

Amen brother Wally!!! Man, how I wish I had that option with most clients....:( Most just don't want to spend the money for a whole studio day just to get something as silly as the drums sounding right. I can just "fix it in the mix" right? :rolleyes:

Ed
 
I once spend 6 12 hour days getting the drumsound right before tracking
 
Thanks Guys

I will put to use your advice and see what happens. I will endever to get a sound going in that needs no eq. It is hard for me not knowing how the rest of the mix will play in. I think the 3-4k will help.


Thanks
Dave
 
sjoko2 said:
I once spend 6 12 hour days getting the drumsound right before tracking
Click to expand...
How much eq did you use? Little to none?
 
getting drumsound right =

1. Tuning the kit.

2. Accurate placement of the kit in the choosen acoustic environment.

3. Microphone placement.

4. Placing of baffles and other needed acoustic ambiance treatment.

5. Testing of phasing between mics.

6. Microphone placement.

7. Re-tuning kit to the environment / sound.

8. Microphone placement.

9. Test recordings with close miling mics.

10. Test recordings with ambiance mics.

11. Fine adjustments in kit tuning

12. Fine adjustments in mic placements

13. Testing of phasing.

very easy to spend days
I should say that, while I don't use EQ, I do use shelving on some mics
 
Phasing

How do you test Phasing, although I have bigger problems than that? Just by ear or do you have hardware/software for that.
I understand Phasing I think. It is the degridation of sound due to out of time sound waves/frequency due to mics being placed at unequal distaces from a sound source.???? sort of a noise cancelation effect.

One of my big problems I think is that I have no soud deadening in the room. I am going to hang thick blankets on the wall next time I record.

I tried to use a (cheap) condensor mic for an overhead last time and it caught so much gross kick sound that I had to do away with it and mic with all cardoid mics. The mic was a audio-technica at813. Bought it used cheap. !!!I really need to invest on some more/better mics.
 
The most common phasing problem is the one caused as a result of the interaction between overheads and source mics, and between source mics (the ones aimed close on an instrument), overheads and ambiance (room) mics.

There are a couple af ways to identify phasing problems.
By ear is the easiest and the best one, if you know what you are looking for. Easiest described as a "wavy / washy" sound
more later, have to go!
 
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