What's the deal.

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Ignatius-

Ignatius-

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So, it's Friday night...

I've been searching for the right 1/2" eight-track for a while, and I'm getting a little sick of people saying bad things about the TSR 8 over at gearslutz (or any TASCAM equipment, for that matter). I'll just do a search on google - "Tascam TSR 8"... a bunch of posts will show up from gearslutz. I'll read them... not too impressed with what I hear about the TSR 8. I'll swing on over here to the analog only section. Same search. Pretty impressed with what I hear about the TSR 8. What's the deal? What is this demographic shift over here that I don't know about?

Are these the types of people who might be recording/have recorded "commercially?" ... maybe? And what does that mean? Honestly, is there any good commercial music today? … So you're recording, say, Chris Brown's new one - he demands the highest quality of sound recording, obviously. So: "...from personal experience," they hypothetically say, "don't you bother working with TASCAM. It isn’t even close to the professional level that our artists require." - Chris'll totally sound like sh** when he gets played on my friend's computer speakers, but that doesn't matter - nothing less than a top of the line DAW or an A80 for Chris.

Isn't music an art? Maybe, even, the highest art form? So, then, why (in popular music at least) does it seem like the less artistic something becomes, the better the studio setup? And what great artists (actual artists, not someone who’s name is listed in iTunes as an “artist”) these days have the support of a record company ($$$) to use these state of the art studios? Not very many. (Radiohead exception).

There are huge studios devoted to making music like this: Rick Ross ft Lil Wayne 9 Piece Lyrics - YouTube

or this: Jessica Simpson - I Think I'm In Love With You (lyrics) - YouTube

when only one four track recorder was used for this: Bruce Springsteen 1982 Nebraska - YouTube

or this: Ween - Freedom of '76 - YouTube.

Which has or will last longer? The Boss or Jessica Simpson. Ween or Rick Ross? So what does it matter to people like me, who are just trying to make something they can be proud of? Why would I even want to afford a setup like the one Chris Brown would be recording onto? Who sincerely wants to make music (not money now, music) like Chris Brown?

I love my 34b! I think I've made some pretty decent recordings with that machine - especially considering how much it cost me! So, what is the deal?

Why do I feel guilty every time I see that TSR 8?... "wow, I should wait for an MX-5050 mk.iii because it's 'professional' and I could make better recordings on that."

…

I just need to stop listening to those guys over there.
 
You just need to stop listening to those guys over there.

I did the same thing with my M-520. Statements like "sounds like a$$" and such.

The problem is that there is a degree of snobbery over "there" while its been my experience that there is a degree of "community" over "here". That's being really stereotypical I suppose but I spend very little time over "there" and probably wouldn't be very welcome anyway.

I could say a lot but then I'd just be doing what "they" do so I'm going to stop.

Hang out where you grow.

Have fun with what you're doing.

If something is working for you, inspiring you, enabling the joy of making and recording music, then don't let anybody tell you you're doing something wrong or don't have something right. You've got what you've got...only you know what makes you tick. Nobody but nobody can take that away from you so let them go pat themselves on the back for being geniuses and having the money to get the gear that reinforces their geniusness. Congrats. If they were having the same kind of fun they wouldn't care about slamming other people or gear.

Gear will not ever get in the way of something really great. Likewise gear will never elevate the not-so-great to great.

Its all a great facade.

Stop and think about how much influence marketing departments have had then and now...huge...like a sea of rabid dogs we wait to lap up our own consumer vomit and they know it.

As a little aside let me ask you to name a company that, more or less, gave the conventional marketing machine the finger and did their own thing? Tascam. They never really played along or seemed to care what others said or did because they knew they had a good product. People were buying it because they had products that met the demand...they met the market where it was, rather than forcing ideas upon our gear lust. Maybe that's why so many people are endeared to their Tascam gear...because they didn't feel like they got cornholed into wanting it.

I tell ya...I now have boutiqe-ish gear...fringe stuff okay? Plenty of people would tell me my "professional" gear sounds like a$$ (MCI JH-416 mixing console and Ampex MM-1000), but it has been a great lesson in engineering and build quality. There are significant differences, okay? But one thing I keep coming back to is just how impressed I am with HOW Tascam engineered their products to meet price points that the market could reach. HUGE committment to a balance of quality, features and price. I feel they excelled at it. This gets into circuit-level stuff and component selection...its more than skin deep. My point is that dipping my toes into the "professional" realm hasn't caused me to divorce from my affinity for Tascam gear. On the contrary it has reinforced it.

I'll loosely quote what another well-versed/educated/experienced member said once, that Tascam knew its stuff...you're not buying boutique rare gear when you by a Tascam unit but its GOOD...it is well engineered, RELIABLE and sounds GOOD you know? Innovation after innovation and you know they were on the cutting edge of head design technology toward the end? Digital ended the development but they were on to something new. And did you also know that at the end of the open reel analog era their open-reel tape transports were some of the most sophisticated reliable and top performing transports? They got it right, but because it says "Tascam" some people love it because they can make themselves feel important by knocking it.

Hey...free country. Different set of priorities and filters...
 
Gear is a limiting factor only when your own skills aren't. You can get a lot of mileage out of "lesser" gear while you are building your skills, and then move to better gear when you have the skills to make the most of it.
 
Gearslutz posters would have you buy a Porsche when all you really need is a Volkswagen. It's elitism at its worst: You're only as good as the amount you're willing to spend. Bah!
 
Something to be careful of with the many music forums on the web is that you have a whole culture of people that hear things from people that hear things from people… but they’ve never had any personal experience whatsoever with the thing they’re talking about. So when they say they’ve heard this or that about something, they’ve heard it right here on the web from other people who don’t have any direct experience with it either. I really believe they mean well, but when someone asks a question they do the same thing you do… google for an answer. So the web is cluttered with the same WRONG answers repeated over and over again.

Then you have some people with dusty, outdated perceptions of some brands. I know a few of them on other forums. For example, their only experience with Tascam may have been with the clunky 70-Series machines, so they dismiss everything else Tascam. Simply put… they’re clueless. There’s also a contrived snobbery among some who want to appear “In the Know” by dising so-called semi-pro gear of any kind. Ironically that attitude betrays them as having less than a full grasp of how things really work.

Best only listen to people who own, have owned or otherwise have a significant amount of direct experience with the item in question. But not only that. They also should know what the hell they’re doing… have a good grasp of recording fundamentals. I’m a happy long-time owner of a TSR-8. Back in the day there’s no way I could afford a lot of the equipment I worked with, so I used my background to choose the best gear within my budget for my own home studio. Sonically speaking I would put the TSR-8 (and many other Tascam decks) up against “Pro machines” many times the price. That machine in particular was way ahead of its time and ridiculously under-priced for its exceptional performance. Anyone who says otherwise has never seen one… or at least not a properly working one.

That’s one more thing… you may get a novice who goes out and buys a worn-out piece of equipment… out of spec, perhaps internally damaged in shipping. Then they come on the web and Shriek about their bad experience. Really they don’t have enough recording experience to even have an experience.

Of all the music forums I've visited over the years this humble corner of the web here at HR has been consistently most experienced, informative and accurate on technical matters.
 
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One thing they do on Gearslutz is cover a LOT of gear!
You can Google just about any make/model of anything...and chances are the 2nd or 3rd link is a Gearslutz link.
So if you just want to get some specs and opinions about something, they've probably covered it there, and very often there is a good mix of +/- opinions.

Of course...bring some salt (and some $$$)...you may need it. :D
 
Gear will not ever get in the way of something really great. Likewise gear will never elevate the not-so-great to great.

Its all a great facade.
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Totally true... I couldn't agree more. It just took me a little while to figure that out. I mean, no one tells you these kinds of things when you are doing it yourself!

Best only listen to people who own, have owned or otherwise have a significant amount of direct experience with the item in question.
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Again, definitely. That is why I love it so much over here! You guys have actually worked with all of the equipment that you vouch for. I am definitely going to take everything I read over "there" regarding analog equipment with a grain of salt.

Sonically speaking I would put the TSR-8 (and many other Tascam decks) up against “Pro machines” many times the price.
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This is what I have heard... it is the marketing! On a psychological level, the difference between "pro" and "semi-pro" is huge! Like, what does that mean? (rhetorical)...

I've read it here before, and I will say it again: cheap analog gear beats cheap digital gear any day! And I love how cheap analog gear sounds! And I love how I work when I am using it. Sorry to continue the Ween thing (if people aren't too fond of them... :( ), but this is a great video that I think speaks to, you know, whatever. Ween-Freedom of '76 Jane Pratt show 1993 - YouTube

I guess this was all something of a realization that I only realized once I wrote it out... :D. There are so many other things that I want to rant about regarding commercial music, but I'm sure anything I will say won't be new...
 
The "pro" decks often were not crammed into a small box to fit into your bedroom studio, but were built into big frames for easy access for repair and adjustments.
They were also expected to run day and night for year after year.
That's why they cost twice as much as the prosumer decks.
That, and the cheaper at the time labor and manufacturing costs of Japanese goods.
That being said, there is no reason you can't make some great recordings with a tascam or otari deck.
Have fun.
 
One bit of info that I learned about back in the early '80s that was instrumental in helping me stay focused and plod along with my home studio plans, was that the Eurythmics "Sweet Dreams (Are Made of This)" album was recorded entirely on a TASCAM 80-8 1/2" tape deck.

"Dave Stewart, together with Robert Crash and ex-The Selecter bassist Adam Williams, produced the album in Eurythmics' own relatively primitive 8-track studio, winning awards for the quality of the end-result which belied its low-budget origins."

They don't specifically mention the TASCAM 80-8...but that's what it was.

"Sweet Dreams" was a monster album at the time, and the key to the quality was great songs and great performances...not the type of deck.
 
miroslav said:
One bit of info that I learned about back in the early '80s that was instrumental in helping me stay focused and plod along with my home studio plans, was that the Eurythmics "Sweet Dreams (Are Made of This)" album was recorded entirely on a TASCAM 80-8 1/2" tape deck.
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That's pretty mind-blowing. I always assumed it was done in a state-of-the art studio on 24-track.
Now that I listen to the single again, there aren't actually very many tracks going on, but I wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't been told.
 
As an aside, the 'other place' has as it's very name the concept of being unable to resist buying more gear.
It also has a lot more professionals, including people who work on the highest profile projects.
This place is, well, 'home' recording.
Less shouting and snobbery here, but they are both useful resources.
 
What is "pro" anyway?

I just sent some microphone PCB's to a guy who has an acoustically wonderful church that allows him to record chamber music.

Even professionals (I mean recording artist who actually make a living off music -- as opposed to "amateurs" like me) can't all record at Abbey Road. Not all movies are made at MGM. A lot of "B" list acts (for lack of a better term) recorded on the kind of gear we're talking about here. I remember going to a small studio in Anaheim, CA, in 198x that if memory serves me correct had a MSR-16 and Tascam 520. He was selling his Teac 15, having "upgraded" to the 520....another frequently vilified piece "over there..." Part of the rebellion that gave us music like the Clash, was a reaction to the arena acts that could afford to spend a year in a $350/hour studio. Mind you, not that I mind the arena acts either... case in point that Springsteen album done on a Portastudio....
 
zorf said:
The "pro" decks often were not crammed into a small box to fit into your bedroom studio, but were built into big frames for easy access for repair and adjustments.
They were also expected to run day and night for year after year.
That's why they cost twice as much as the prosumer decks.
That, and the cheaper at the time labor and manufacturing costs of Japanese goods.
That being said, there is no reason you can't make some great recordings with a tascam or otari deck.
Have fun.
Click to expand...

This, and of course what's also missing in this discussion is operating level. Pro deck standard audio ref levels are +4dBu while consumer electronics are down at -10dBv. Audio connections on consumer/prosumer decks are generally RCA unbalanced type to interface with the same level of small mixer while the pro machines were typically expected to be either hard-wired or to large-format consoles or compatible quick-cons on custom looms.

Pro decks typically had beefier motors that could reliably move heavy reels and pull tape across heads day in, day out. They were built like tanks with monster power supplies often with beefier rails and pulled more current off the mains. Boards and parts were designed and spec'd to be relatively easily serviceable; they were also expected to be maintained professionally on a routine basis. It's sort of like comparing a high performance sports car to the family Camry. The sports car will exceed in performance but will need regular maintenance to make that happen, while the Camry will keep rolling happy with minimal maintenance or even when neglected.

Then there's the issue of format--wider tracks on some pro formats vs. prosumer--eg 2" vs. 1" 16 track and so on, meaning other variable aside, a properly calibrated pro format could be a little quieter/punchier. Pro decks generally can be calibrated much more specifically, with a somewhat delicate balance of overbias and operating levels being tweaked from reel to reel, formula to formula and session to session. Many prosumer decks won't set up optimally for +9 tapes and don't let you trim bias to suit. As a brief anecdote, not long ago I was tracking female vocals and we liked the mic's bright character but I found it just a hair crystalline on playback, so I overbiased the vocal channel another half decibel and voila. Nice little pet tricks, there!

There's certainly a sonic and operational difference between a Tascam 1/2" 8-track and our 350lb pro 1" 8-track machine that's the size of a small fridge and can happily hit tape at +10...BUT, as has been pointed out, that doesn't mean that great music can't be made on either type of machine!!

Side curiosity, what did Tascam 2-tracks and 8-tracks of the 80s typically cost as new? I haven't seen original price sheets and I'm curious how they compared to the pro machines. Pro decks at twice the cost struck me as low? Far as I know, our 1"8 track machine would have cost somewhere around $12k in the mid-80s and MCI was considered more of a budget-friendly option; typical 2" 24-track machines more like $30-50k depending. As I understand it, the Tascam M3700 I used to have ran somewhere around $12k as new, while a similarly equipped MCI 600-series console would have been at least $60k.
 
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I had a TSR8 when they were new and I can tell you that the quality was fantastic. The only non pro thing about it was the unbalanced RCA connectors at -10dB, but that was because they were designed to operate with the Tascam range on consoles that had RCA's at -10dB. The connectors never caused me any problems.

Alan
 
I'm really enjoying this thread! I think what I love about this forum is that I've been able to assemble a respectable home studio for recording really challenging and difficult music by interacting with a bunch of really supportive folks. The friendliness here is really pretty refreshing, especially on the Web.

I check this forum a couple of times each day and even if I don't have time for a detailed response I'll still contribute if I can. It's fun and there's zero attitude :)
 
I'm always amazed the Tascam machines sound as good as they do. Seems like they should have paid a higher sonic price for using the same specs for record and play heads, or even using a single head for both, but they didn't. I don't have much experience calibrating two-head machines, but I imagine the record side calibration must be somewhat more cumbersome. Of course, if you have someone else do the work, it matters less.

As you might expect, the "pro" machines generally were better suited for working in pro studios with high duty cycle, a machine room, onsite tech, etc.

What the gear snobs don't want to hear is that the prosumer decks are generally better for home and project studio work, where other gear is also prosumer level, space is limited and everything happens in one room (or maybe in several different places). They play well with unbalanced, consumer level audio, they're smaller and more portable and the transports are quiet, while some pro machines are loud.

Moreover, the gear snobs hate little mixers like my Mackie 1604, but when paired up with a tape machine that works well with consumer levels, a mixer like that can be very clean sounding. So, both the compact mixer and prosumer tape machine are separately a poor fit for a pro studio, but together they can record excellent sound on a small budget and offer far more portability than most pro gear.

Cheers,

Otto
 
At the risk of simply repeating something I've read, but which makes sense based on other credible things I've read and know there is nothing inherently bad or good about unbalanced vs balanced connections, if the unbalanced connections aren't too long. balanced low impedance cable runs are preferred over longer distance, and I'm assuming that is the reason also for the higher operating level Balanced can also reject noise, but careful wiring, and/or judicious use of isolation transformers can do the same for unbalanced connections. And not all "balanced" really is even if it has XLR I/O.
 
I've only used unbalanced connections and have never had a problem with it. Got some good sound too. I'm sure it could be better, but it was pleasing to me.

What really got me settled into this place was the people. If someone REALLY loves their gear and are devoted to a specific brand, and they have some integrity, you will get the perceived good AND bad about them, from someone who actually USES the gear. I've used a TSR-8 and a 38 and could go on for days about the likes and dislikes of each machine from a user standpoint, but people like Sweetbeats and Lofi (and many others!) could tell you about the guts of the machines. I love that aspect about this place.

Everyone pulls away with something different in each of these threads, so there is no telling what you will learn! If all else fails, do a search in this forum. If that fails, ASK! If there is an honest question from someone, one of these enthusiasts is sure to respond without so much as a trace of attitude.

I've only browsed GS briefly a while back and was put off by the anti-Tascam/Fostex/Ampex/etc. attitudes. Never sweated it, and never went back.
 
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