What's so great about membranes?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Caiwyn
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here's the formula -

Fo=170/(sqrt)(md), where
Fo = Resonance Frequency
m = Surface Density of panel in lbs/sq ft
d = depth of air space in inches

I KNEW there was something bothering me. :confused: I tried to find answers to these questions a long time ago, and Ethan, Eric you tried to explain but NEVER did answer them to the point where I understood. Heres a few more .

1. Have you ever seen a LAB TEST RESULT of a given size WxLxD membrane absorber, with given panel thickness, given surface density of the panel that shows HOW MUCH ABSORPTION ACTUALLY OCCURS in Sabins(Sabines?), at the target frequency, maybe per square foot. :confused: Never heard it discussed. Its one thing to say that a membrane absorber absorbs a certain center frequency but NO ONE has ever said HOW MUCH they absorb????? At least resistance absoption material manufacturers give a chart of absorption coeffeicients gained from Lab tests. The formula doesn't specify it either. Seems like it would if placed correctly(theoretical?) Otherwise, how do you know what to expect, or better yet, what tells you HOW MUCH ABSORPTION you need at that frequency in the first place ? Seems pretty arbitrary to me. :rolleyes:
2. I asked what determines the SIZE?? Or how many?

3. What happens if you DOUBLE the size(not depth) Will a membrane absorber 48"x 96" absorb TWICE as much as one 24"x 96"?

4. In the link, the chart showing relative "strengths" of different modes, what does it tell you in regard to these "strengths", as to designing a membrane absorber to ...ahem..absorb them? I don't understand this concept...it seems like something is missing....LIKE WHAT IS THE TARGET ABSORPTION in Sabines? Or am I mixing apples and oranges...or missed some point completely :confused: :confused: :confused:
fitZ
 
The calculation you gave gives the center frequency of the absorption. The damping term's absent which controls how broadly the device works. Kinda like the F and Q in a parametric EQ.
 
Apl, I only copied it from Steves post at Johns acoustics site. I know KNOTHING about formulas. :rolleyes: Why do you think I'm here. :D
 
RICK FITZPATRICK said:
Apl, I only copied it from Steves post at Johns acoustics site. I know KNOTHING about formulas. :rolleyes: Why do you think I'm here. :D

What was your question again? Sorry...
 
What was your question again? Sorry...
:rolleyes: Same problem I had last time I went through this. I guess they're not very clear. Let me put it this way.


Forget it. :rolleyes:
 
RICK FITZPATRICK said:
1. Have you ever seen a LAB TEST RESULT of a given size WxLxD membrane absorber, with given panel thickness, given surface density of the panel that shows HOW MUCH ABSORPTION ACTUALLY OCCURS in Sabins(Sabines?), at the target frequency, maybe per square foot. :confused: Never heard it discussed. Its one thing to say that a membrane absorber absorbs a certain center frequency but NO ONE has ever said HOW MUCH they absorb?????

Ethans and the RGP sites both show how much each piece absorb, right?


RF said:
At least resistance absoption material manufacturers give a chart of absorption coeffeicients gained from Lab tests. The formula doesn't specify it either. Seems like it would if placed correctly(theoretical?) Otherwise, how do you know what to expect, or better yet, what tells you HOW MUCH ABSORPTION you need at that frequency in the first place ? Seems pretty arbitrary to me. :rolleyes:

The answer to how much you need is as much bass absorption as possible.

RF said:
2. I asked what determines the SIZE?? Or how many?

You need more low frequency absorption than you have room for.

RF said:
3. What happens if you DOUBLE the size(not depth) Will a membrane absorber 48"x 96" absorb TWICE as much as one 24"x 96"?

Yes, but...

If you double using your numbers in a 1000 seat auditorium, it still won't be enough, and if you double like that in my 12 x 10 project music room it'll be significant. This is because absorbers are taking away and their effectiveness depends on how much they have to deal with in the first place.

Further complicating matters is that our ears are logarithmic, not linear, so linear doubling only gives you 6dB, doubling again gives you 6 more, etc. Perfection is therefore out of reach.

RF said:
4. In the link, the chart showing relative "strengths" of different modes, what does it tell you in regard to these "strengths", as to designing a membrane absorber to ...ahem..absorb them? I don't understand this concept...it seems like something is missing....LIKE WHAT IS THE TARGET ABSORPTION in Sabines? Or am I mixing apples and oranges...or missed some point completely :confused: :confused: :confused:
fitZ

The room treatment is trying to get rid of modes altogether or to damp them significantly, basically trying to get the peaks lowered and valleys filled. Doing this also helps with localization issues.

The general rules of thumb are:

1. Install broadband absorption covering about 1/3 of the area of the walls and ceiling.

2. Install as much bass trapping as you can.

3. Install a reflective floor.

4. Create a reflection free spot for listening to your monitors.

5. Add rear wall and ceiling diffusion if you've got a big space.
 
knightfly said:
IF you read through the entire text of the first link, it should help explain a few things about panel traps... Steve


Panel traps = diaphragmatic = membrane

Right?
 
eraos said:
Panel traps = diaphragmatic = membrane

Right?

Panel is ambiguous, but, yeah, the other two are usually interchangeable.
 
Hey Rick, yeah it's been awhile - the phrase "nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs" comes to mind :=)

If you still have your copy of Everest's MHOA, it may help to re-read the section on Diaphramatic absorbers starting on page 205 (of the 4th edition) - there's a graph of 3 panel traps showing peak absorption, approximate bandwidth, and absorption coefficients (the ones with rockwool inside peak fairly narrow at around 0.7. He goes on to talk about drywall on studs. It's only a few pages.

To figure total sabins, multiply the coefficient by square footage - be aware that this is a GENERAL idea, it would need to be measured in place BEFORE and AFTER to know exact values. Eric once told me that he'd given up on a particular low frequency room problem using panel traps (musta been pretty bad) because by the time he got enough absorption the traps were "giving back" their own contribution to that resonance. He also commented that if you're looking for EXACT frequency peak you need to build them with a flexible seal around the front panel and fasten the panel with screws that can be tightened or loosened to "tune" the trap.

This type trap works by the energy conversion to heat, in two ways - first, the flexing of the front panel takes energy - this is converted from panel movement into heat, lessening the amount of acoustic energy. Then, the internal absorbent works similar to a purely absorbent trap - that is, the air being pushed and pulled thru the absorbent causes that energy to be converted to heat due to the frictional losses in getting thru the interstices of the material. For this reason, the soft fluffy stuff isn't the right choice here.

In Joe's room, I just got plain LUCKY - I won't sugarcoat it. He had a (un-quantified, as far as I know) problem at two frequencies, and a desire to keep the decor from looking crappy - I offered a solution including calculations for frequency (only), he built 'em, and only AFTER the installation did his room get "dolby certified", whatever that means - I don't know the particulars of that, only that he's a happy camper.

It seems everyone's looking for short, concrete answers to these questions - I'm sorry, but there aren't any. You need to work through each instance separately, and if you're building from scratch or retro-fitting, it helps to get a "ballpark" idea of what to expect by factoring in the LF panel trap effect of your drywall when doing predicted reverb times - the reverb calculator at John's site takes this into account when you tell it what your walls are.

My (mostly theoretical) approach to this (which seems to work fairly well, considering the number of happy "customers" at John's site) is to, if possible, keep modal problems to a minimum (mostly scratch building of course) by shying away from "bad" room ratios in the first place - next, measure the room once it's "soundproofed" - this gives a baseline so you know what to attack next. if there aren't any HUGE peaks or dips, the standard corner absorbers/cloud/first reflection points/super-fat rear trap approach has worked well for a LOT of people. This is of course for a CR - live rooms have different requirements. Longer 'verb times, NON-symmetry(for variations dependent on mic/instrument placement) and flutter control would be 3 main things in a live room.

If there are STILL unacceptable peaks or dips in a CR after the basic treatment, I start looking at boundary effects (either adding more wall absorbent at the rear of speakers, or move 'em a bit) and if this does little or nothing, if the room's a rectangle I check which modes would likely be causing the problem - starting with axials since they're stronger than the other two. A length mode needs to be treated (for panel traps anyway) by placing the panels on the SIDE walls (or ceiling) at points of highest PRESSURE, not velocity. I use Harmon's simple but graphic mode calculator for this usually.

Sorry to cut this short, but those "rocking chairs" just don't seem to wanna quit - I hope this helps some. Best I can offer for now is that this appears to be an exact science ONLY for people with bigger heads than mine - for the rest of us, it's "cut and try" more or less. Maybe my post in John's acoustics forum titled "are my speakers in a null" will give a bit more, been a while since I reviewed what I said there meself... Steve
 
I thought I was hanging out with stoner musicians but you guys are turning out to be a bunch of math geeks. :D :D :D
 
apl said:
You need more low frequency absorption than you have room for.

Well, here's where it gets confusing. Everybody says this, but nobody really defines "low frequency" in that context. How low are we talking here? Below 300 Hz? Below 100 Hz? If a trap does really well down to 100 Hz but takes a nosedive after that, how does it compare to a trap that is not as effective above 100 Hz, but more consistent below?
 
I thought I was hanging out with stoner musicians but you guys are turning out to be a bunch of math geeks.
It depends on which one of us you are referring to. I'm probably of the first type. Add Old fart to the description though. :D

Steve, once again your practical approach and wisdom shines through. Thanks buddy. BTW, watch for the rest of the options of my"rear wall options" thread. I'm sure you'll have on opinion or three. :p And they will be appreciated.

Oh, btw, if you still want those video monitors(probably obsolete by now :rolleyes: ) my sister in law will be here today. I'll send em back with her as she lives in Eugene. Maybe you can pick them up there. It'll be a while before I can get up there. Oh, and those rocking chairs can suck you in, can't they. Perfect for old farts. ;)
fitZ
 
Always glad to help, Rick - and sure I still want the monitors - as many things as I'm doing with video these days, there'll always be something they can show me...

Email me the details on hooking up with your sis-in-law, and we can work out the details - and thanks for thinking of me, I really appreciate it.

Traps - man, if shit gets any more expensive I may be dumpster divin' for old pissy arm chairs to use for bass traps. Every time I hit the Homely Despot the prices get more ridiculous. Don't be surprised if the next "big thang" isn't hijacking lumber trucks... Steve
 
and sure I still want the monitors - as many things as I'm doing with video these days, there'll always be something they can show me...
Cool. They live between Junction City and Venetta. Easy to get to. I'll email you a map/ address and a phone. They retired so they are always home.

Today I finally have time to mod the bridge on my console to make room for my new M3700. Bought it off ebay from a film composer in LA. Fuck. Talk about a home studio. Overlooked Hollywood with 4 big windows, each at a different angle to break up reflections. Made a grueling 4 day trip to LA and back. Drove from Sac to LA and back to Sac in one 16 hour trip. :eek: I learned one thing. Its another country down there. NO one spoke fucking english. Left Sac the next day after 3 hrs sleep. It was a clear day, but when I hit Mt. Shasta, the wierdest snow storm clouds I ever saw engulfed me. Drove for 15 miles with my head out the window to see where I was going. Thank god I made it to Yreka and got a room. Damn, never again. Too old for that stuff anymore :rolleyes: :D But once a fool, always a fool. Just had to do it one more time. ;)
fitZ :)
 
Traps - man, if shit gets any more expensive I may be dumpster divin' for old pissy arm chairs to use for bass traps. Every time I hit the Homely Despot the prices get more ridiculous.
Man, ain't that the damn truth.
Just got a quote for
(3) 4# 4"x48"x 120" Knauf rigid fiberglass panels.(120 square feet)
(3) 4# 3"x48"x 120" Knauf rigid fiberglass panels.(120 square feet)
(80) 4# 4"x 16"x48" mineral wool batts(487 square feet)
Shipping to Coos bay from Paragon in Portland.

$1200 :eek: :mad: :rolleyes:
 
Yeah, and Paragon's one of the CHEAPER ones - so how much of that was shipping? we're talking about 250 cubic feet/9 cubic yards there, prob'ly wouldn't fit in a volkswagen :=)) Steve
 
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