Whats a good price for NS10M's?

I worked for a Yamaha hi-fi dealer that summer. I got a pair of NS8s. I wish I still had them.
Wow, I wasn't aware of the NS-8s. Was there an entire series of NSsses?

Yeah, it would be cool to still have those. I'll bet they'd have at least a little collector/nostalgia value. But they'd probaby have the most value just to show people so you could collect on at least a couple of different bar bets you could probably get people agree to in a bar argument about audio gear :D.

I remember back around 1980 or so heading over to Gill Custom House, which was really the only pro audio dealer in my area back then; one of those places where you had to ring the bell to get in past the electronically locked door so they could keep out the lookie loos. We went to check out these new Yamaha "monitors" we had been reading about (and drooling over the k3wl white speaker cones in the pictures;) ). We got to give them an audition for a little while, and I remember walking out thinking that there must be something wrong with me (besides the obvious, I know, guys :) ) because based upon what I heard, I just couldn't understand what all the buzz was about.

G.
 
Wow, I wasn't aware of the NS-8s. Was there an entire series of NSsses?

Yeah. The 8s were acoustic suspension with 8" woofer, 1" cloth dome tweeter, walnut grain. The 10s were black and white with the beryllium tweeter, iirc. Then there were a couple of bigger floor standing models.

SSG said:
Yeah, it would be cool to still have those. I'll bet they'd have at least a little collector/nostalgia value. But they'd probaby have the most value just to show people so you could collect on at least a couple of different bar bets you could probably get people agree to in a bar argument about audio gear :D.

I really, really liked the sound. My Jamos remind of them a lot. I did manage to find a recever one model up from the one I had...

P2030031.jpg
 
Wow, acid flashback! I remember those Yamaha receivers; very, very clean looking, especially for the time. And a nice crisp sound to the amp too, if I remember right. We didn't sell the Yammies where I worked, though, so I didn't have a lot of ears-on with them back then.

Well, I was a bit behind the times back in the late 70s. My receiver was actually an old Technics 4-channel receiver from (I think)1973:
sa8100xcatalog.jpg

I wish I still had the thing, actually. I probably would if it hadn't gotten stolen :(.

G.
 
I also give a nod to the M-Audio BX8's. Of the 4 sets of monitors that we have in our studio, these are the least expensive, but not the worst sounding. It's about preference, but the BX8's are a good place to start.

I still subscribe to the theory, if it sounds good on NS10s it'll sound good anywhere........
 
Wow, acid flashback! I remember those Yamaha receivers; very, very clean looking, especially for the time. And a nice crisp sound to the amp too, if I remember right. We didn't sell the Yammies where I worked, though, so I didn't have a lot of ears-on with them back then.

Well, I was a bit behind the times back in the late 70s. My receiver was actually an old Technics 4-channel receiver from (I think)1973:
sa8100xcatalog.jpg

I wish I still had the thing, actually. I probably would if it hadn't gotten stolen :(.

G.

Oh, and I've got a Carver cube.
 
Here's the story:

It's because the 5dB midrange bump they deliver along with it's anemic bass response force the home engineer to shave a few extra dB off the mids and add some tight bass on the individual tracks or in the mix. It's the equivalent of a milder but forced version of death scoop EQ applied in the mix.

G.

I am actually happy to admit that this is part of why I find them useful. Some other monitors are too flattering IMO and it's not as easy to spot the excess midrange. The NS-10s slap you in the face with it. Like anything else, you have to learn to calibrate yourself to it or you'll get carried away. A lot of people (myself included) using NS-10s will toggle between them and bigger, or smaller, or 'better' or all three types of speakers.

You won't find anyone saying 'NS-10s are great speakers' because they're not, but they are a tool.
 
Oh, and I've got a Carver cube.
Oh, man, Carver Sonic Holography!! Now we ARE talking acid flashback! :D
PhiloBeddoe said:
Some other monitors are too flattering IMO and it's not as easy to spot the excess midrange. The NS-10s slap you in the face with it. Like anything else, you have to learn to calibrate yourself to it or you'll get carried away. A lot of people (myself included) using NS-10s will toggle between them and bigger, or smaller, or 'better' or all three types of speakers.
I'm not disagreeing or saying it's wrong or bad or anything like that. Whatever works for you works for you. I'm simply saying there's something about that approach I simply never understood, and maybe you can explain it to me for once and for all. I have a couple of different personal theories, neither one of them which I'd like to believe is true; I'd rather hear a fist-hand explanation from an advocate:

How does "not hyped" equal "flattering"? If a mix has too much midrange or not enough bass, shouldn't one be able to hear it without needing the "unflattering", funhouse mirror-like response curve of an NS-10?

And even more, if you're EQing so that the midrange sounds "right' on an NS-10, aren't you really over-scooping the midrange on everything else?

And as far as the going back and forth between speakers, when I set my current home setup (yikes! almost 10 years ago now; I need an upgrade fix :eek:) I set it up that way; I have HR824s as my main mix monitors on the overbridge, and some Klipsch bookshelves on wall-mounted swivel arms as my "check monitors". I did this for a few months until I fine tuned my ears to the 824s and a mix made on them sounded just fine on the Klipschs pretty much the first time around. The fine-tuning required was actually quite minimal, and was probably just as much learning the room as it was the monitors. I haven't used the Klipschs in years, other than to occasionally (once or twice a year) get a reality check and make sure the 824s or my ears have not drifted very far.

If, after a fair amount of time, one cannot get it done with a a single set of monitors, that might be a fair sign that one is using the wrong monitors for them?

Again, honest questions for which I would like honest answers. That's all.

G.
 
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Personally I use the NS-10s (for the most part) as simply a different angle from which to hear my mix. I often use them to check the low end (surprisignly enough!), to check that my kick and bass can still be heard on a system with a limit low-end response. I do check things from time to time (fairly often during a mix session) on the NS-10s but for the most part I guess i do most of my mixing on the HR624. Mostly, the checking is just a thing for re-assurance, but I do occasionally tweak things as a consequence.

To try and answer your question Glenn, perhaps it is because I don't know the HR624, although I do like to think I know them fairly well. Perhaps it's because I haven't got enough experience mixing? I guess it's just another tool that I use to help me along. The projects that I mix at home are all done on 624s, so perhaps I'm just using them because they're there?

Certainly, I would never say Ns10s are good sounding speakers. In fact, for the longest time I couldn't abide by them. But with a bit of time I think they grew on me...or maybe I grew on them? I think when most people are listening to what you're mixing on very similar speakers to the NS10s, it makes sense to check what you're doing on them...
 
There's a lot to be said for having several different pairs of speakers in your control room and checking the mix on all of them each time you want to confirm a decision - especially EQ.

I don't think they need to be NS10s, I use a pair of cheap single-driver computer speakers as a limited-bandwidth reference.
 
The basic idea of the NS10 is that if you can get a mix to sound good on them it will sound good anywhere. The monitors do make you work for your mix, but that's not a bad thing.

Monitors that sound "better" and are seemingly easier to mix on do not necessary make mixes that translate as well. This is why so many engineers used and still use the NS10's, especially in conjunction with another pair.

The knock on the NS10's is that they are fatiguing, which I do agree they are. One also has to be very careful with the bass or use them along with a powered sub.
 
The knock on the NS10's is that they are fatiguing, which I do agree they are. One also has to be very careful with the bass or use them along with a powered sub.

I would have thought using a sub with the NS10s would defeat the purpose of having a limited bandwidth monitor. Especially on bass instruments where the lack of bottom end on the NS10s would expose bass and kick sounds that have oomph on full bandwidth monitors but lack presence and would therefore disappear on TV/radio.
 
The basic idea of the NS10 is that if you can get a mix to sound good on them it will sound good anywhere.
Al, you are a long-time owner of 824s I know; can't you get something to sound good on them and get them to sound good everywhere as well? I'll bet you can. And you'd have a hard time finding a speaker with much different character from the NS-10 than the 824.

What you describe is certainly the common mythology, yes. But think about what that actually means for a second:

First, in order to get something to sound "good" on an NS-10 requires adjusting the mix to fit the NS-10. It's really a variation of the old idea of EQing the monitoring chain to try and correct for deficiencies in the monitoring chain. The difference here is that the EQ is actually *destructively applied to the mix itself* ("destructive" here is not meant as derrogitory, simply meant in the terns of "destructive editing").

Now, the NS-10s are known for weak bass and hyped midrange. Nobody denies that as factual. So this means that the overall EQ balance of the mix winds up with boosted bass and scooped midrange.

Sound familiar? That's 2/3rds of a death scoop EQ, or smiley face EQ, or whatever you want to call it; the very kind of thing that most seasoned audio engineers think of as an amateurish mistake. Yet these are (mostly) the very same seasoned engineers who have been mix checking on NS-10s for years.

Second, just what is meant by getting the mix to sound good everywhere? I think there's all sorts of misunderstanding surrounding that description. What it originally started out meaning in 1978 was making a mix not that sounded good everywhere, but rather, that sounded good on your typical cheap-shit car radio or boom box speaker.

Make no mistake; the sound of the mix on a high-fidelity system was compromised when they did this. It may have still sounded OK on these systems, but not as good as it did before it was NS-10'd. It was a compromise that those shooting for top-40 Billboard listings were willing to make for the price of commerce, not overall fidelity. In this way, it was a technique that is not un-similar to the loudness wars (not to get into that again.) Add in the fact that the common playback mediums back then were vinyl and cassette tape, and the cost of fidelity was kind of mitigated anyway.

But it's now 2008. Boom boxes have been replaced by iPods with earbuds that have surprisingly better fidelity than your average '78 boom box. Vinyl and tape have been replaced BY CD and MP3. Again, today we complain about MP3 fidelity, but it's sure superior to your average cassette tape in 1978. And however nostalgic one may be about the sound of vinyl, the fact is that compromises in fidelity will stick out much further on a CD than it will on an LP. And car radios? With your average car system these days being far more sophisticated and better-sounding then your average home system 30 years ago, and AM radio is just something we use to get news, traffic reports and maybe the local ball game now, mixing for the car is not the challenge it once was.

The great gulf of fidelity on playback systems is much, much smaller today than it was 30 years ago. Just what is it that we need Auratones or NS-10s to adjust our mixes to for? We're chasing dead people with that idea.

If one has a decent pair of monitors, and can't pretty quickly learn that if it sounds good like A on their monitors, that it will also sound good like B or C when taken outside the CR, there's something wrong. Either they have the wrong monitors for their tastes - just like having shoes that don't fit right, or their CR is messing everything up, or their ears just are not cut out for mixing.

But in today's technological environment, death scooping the mix as a shortcut to fool most of the people most of the time is, IMHO, FWTW, and at best, a questionable procedure.

G.
 
it's a personal thing with the ears being connected to the brain and all - but i always thought that when a mix sounded good on NS10's is when it would sound like a muffled big assed pile o shit elsewhere.

when a mix sounded like a sharp thin dagger on NS10's...then it sounded "right" elsewhere.

Mike
 
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