What's a good double-head kick sound?

[mixsit]

I've had just a few experiences with these kits, and maybe this last time the drum tuning wasn't up to snuff to begin with, but this has ended up been very frustrating and humbling.
The session got postponed so I get a second shot at this one, but I had a ton of options and room to play a bit in our test set up; -a QTC-1 primary kit pair from the rear, C3000 in hyper-card on the batter, RE-20 on the front skin (tried a few inches from the low edge, and again half way up to the center, both close to the head), and two LDC's (comparing a 4047 vs ADK ST ) out in front and slightly above the kick.
There are two things that are throwing me. One is that I might not understand the double-head style. It seems to be more about the boom' as opposed to a tight punch and nice shell tones. But here, there is lots of low end in the room, but the only thing I'm getting from the kick in the way midrange tone from any of these mics, soloed or not, is muffled 'putt-putt', and not much boom' to boot.

Help please. I need friend. I've done this before. This stuff is not that mysterious.

Thanks in advance.
Wayne

 

[dudge]

I have miced an 18" double head drum with an ATM25 about 4" in front of resonant head, half way between the center and edge. The sound was great for retro blues that we were doing. One secret may be to use a wood beater to get more punch and attack. I tune my batter head lower than the resonant head which is medium. The looser batter gives a little more punch, too. I think two heads can sound great. A lot of the sound has to do with the drum.

 

[xfinsterx]

Im lost as to what youre asking...
Are you micing a kick drums front and back heads?
Is that what you mean by double headed?
Sorry if this is a dumb question.

 

[Farview]

It takes a good amount of eq and compression to make that kind of a kick work. Is using a kick without a hole appropriate for the style of music they are playing? If not, take the front head off. A closed kick has a cool sound but it isn't always interchangable with an open kick sound.

 

[mixsit]

Thanks for helping me out.
Those comments get the heart of it.
"Is using a kick without a hole appropriate for the style of music they are playing?"
I haven't heard them yet. But this band is doing some originals in several styles and expects to bang basics in a day.
"If not, take the front head off." Check that.
My impression is that this sound might be quite a bit less flexible and moldable in a mix than a typical open kick. To my ear, the few I've come across sound out of balance with the kit, maybe more appropriate for sounding huge and competing' on stage. In this case, I'm not seeing much interesting tone to begin with (although it seems fairly impressive enough sounding in the room).
I'm assuming at this point that I may need to work with him on even the basic style then. So far, I'm hearing room (and tom) resonance' which is faily cool, but little from the kick, then a batter with little edge to work with, that certainly isn't making it past whatever may be inside the drum.

"It takes a good amount of eq and compression to make that kind of a kick work."
After (and assuming one of us in the session get a clue as to this style ), which direction do you go with that? I'm looking to get the scale right, and for tone qualities I can get a handle on.

 

[Farview]

I'm painting with a broad brush here, but if you can get a good balance of the kit (including some snap from the kick) in the over heads, use the mic in front of the kick (don't place the mic in the center) to beef up the low end. Add another mic to the batter side to maybe help with the 'thwack'. Make sure you take care of any phasing issues. and you should be OK.
The kick has to sound good to begin with or you're fighting a loosing battle. There will be too much bleed from the other drums to allow you to do any radical EQ'ing. You will end up with a 'natural' sound instead of the over hyped kick sounds we are used to hearing.