What you hear is not what you get - amp mic'ing

[pure.fusion]

Hi all,

Just struggling with the basic fact that after you mic something up, it's just not the same during play back as it is in real life. That's what mics do - even the good ones.

Specifically, I'm having trouble with guitar amps and mild distortion. I've been dialing up a clean sound in my amp (low wattage, 12" speaker, open back cab) and then pushing the gain up 'till I have a beautiful even smooth constant overdrive. We're not talking death metal buzz here, just a smooth fusion-y gain. This valve produced sound is just fantastic to the ears and life can't be better, birds are singing, the world's a wonderful place.

So you get your sm57 and close mic it up. Doesn't matter if it on the grill, or 6" away, off axis, on axis, centre cone, edge of cone, the resultant recording sounds quite different to the source, with specific attention to the amount of gain. The recording sounds a lot cleaner than the amp does in real life.

Granted, the result is a fantastic "clean" sound that valve amps are famous for but it's still not what we were listening to originally.

So, (Naturally) you turn up the gain on your amp thinking that obviously if the recording process dulls the amount of gain and we should begin the process by having more. So sounding a bit more distorted than you like, you hit the record button and what goes down is again quite different to what you hear, but in a different way.

So, to try and take the mystery out of it I've also looked into mic blending, room micing, recording at different volumes, different rooms, different position in rooms - and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Having learned a lot along the way, I still am struggling with the fact that What you hear is not what you get.

Am I not alone with this problem?

And should I continue to try to capture the sound sound that I hear through my amp? (As opposed to perhaps making sound choices some other way involving mic's and headphones)

Cheers,
FM

 

[miroslav]

I don't worry about that too much. Sure, I start by getting the sound I want from the amp as I hear it. Then I'll run a couple of passes and listen to how it sounds with the other tracks. Then I adjust the amp some until I get what I want when mixed with the other tracks.
When I am done...what I originally heard from the amp has changed some...but so what?

Oh...you might also try a different mic. My favorite for guitar cabs is the Cascade Fat Head.

 

[pure.fusion]

When I am done...what I originally heard from the amp has changed some...but so what?

I agree for slight tonal differences - I would easily move on and accept the change.

But to dial up a distorted sound and have it sound clean on tape , this is something you can't really accept. It's missing the target!

(hahaha, "tape", there's an old word)

FM

 

[NYMorningstar]

Doesn't matter if it on the grill, or 6" away, off axis, on axis, centre cone, edge of cone, the resultant recording sounds quite different to the source, with specific attention to the amount of gain. The recording sounds a lot cleaner than the amp does in real life.

That sounds backwards. I find the recordings to have more distortion than the source. On another note it sure does matter where you place the mic.

So, (Naturally) you turn up the gain on your amp thinking that obviously if the recording process dulls the amount of gain and we should begin the process by having more. So sounding a bit more distorted than you like, you hit the record button and what goes down is again quite different to what you hear, but in a different way.

What does "in different way" mean? Where are you listening from when you are setting the distortion? Try putting your ear where you have the mic.

So, to try and take the mystery out of it I've also looked into mic blending, room micing, recording at different volumes, different rooms, different position in rooms - and a whole bunch of other stuff.
Having learned a lot along the way, I still am struggling with the fact that What you hear is not what you get.

Experimenting is the best way to learn. Try changing your gain staging during tracking and playback. You shouldn't be noticing much of a difference during playback.

And should I continue to try to capture the sound sound that I hear through my amp? (As opposed to perhaps making sound choices some other way involving mic's and headphones)

Yup, keep trying but you shouldn't be mixin with headphones. Headphones are just another reason it sounds different and probably part of the reason it sounds cleaner.

 

[Bristol Posse]

Well mic's will color the sound to some degree based on their design, as will pre amps that add the gain

Also you are listening to the sound from 14 feet away with two ears that capture sound in a much less directional pattern than a mic and are also hearing all of the room reflections that add to the tone, while the mic is listening with 1 diaphragm from 1" away with a tight cartoid pattern and not getting much room reflection into the sound (at least compared to what you hear from 168 times the distance LOL)

Try blocking 1 ear and putting the other one 1 inch away from the speaker and see if that changes how you hear the tone

Get some good isolation headphones and listen to the mic as you play, if you can get someone else to help you move the mic around and try it on and off axis as you play until you find the sweet spot that a good quick way to get a more desirable tone without having to keep running back and forth to do it yourself

You're not alone in this. You just need to remember that if you want to record something pretty close to the way you hear it you either need to put the mic where your ears would normally be in relation to the sound, or put you ears where the mic would normally be and tweak the sound until it sounds good again. After that mess around with finessing the final position and you should be good to go

 

[pure.fusion]

Try putting your ear where you have the mic.

Ahhh, bingo. This is it. Amp is on the floor, my ears are "in the room" somewhere and the mic is right on the amp. Boy do I feel stupid

So it turns out I like the sound of my amp in the room, but don't like the sound of what it is producing directly. More room mic'ing for me then.

Experimenting is the best way to learn.

Agree totally. Only then can you ask for advice and have more of a chance of understanding the advice given.

Try changing your gain staging during tracking and playback. You shouldn't be noticing much of a difference during playback.

Huh? "Gain Staging" ? Do you mean amount of gain? I certainly can change this while tracking, but during playback? I don't think I understand this one.

Yup, keep trying but you shouldn't be mixin with headphones. Headphones are just another reason it sounds different and probably part of the reason it sounds cleaner.

Yup, been there done that. Nice monitors to mix on.

What does "in different way" mean?

Kinda irrelevant now since you've put me on a different path, but for the record, at higher gain settings, I tended to get a harsh jump in the level of distortion. So a legato run or held note would have one type of overdrive sound, but a plucked note or a two note chord would have a more buzzy sound that would really stand out. (No, the input levels are fine).

So all this time when I've been auditioning guitar amps and pedals, I should have been pointing the amp directly to my ears to hear what it sounds like? Bummer!

Much thanks for your reply NYMorningstar

Cheers,
FM

 

[pure.fusion]

Well mic's will color the sound to some degree based on their design, as will pre amps that add the gain

Also you are listening to the sound from 14 feet away with two ears that capture sound in a much less directional pattern than a mic and are also hearing all of the room reflections that add to the tone, while the mic is listening with 1 diaphragm from 1" away with a tight cartoid pattern and not getting much room reflection into the sound (at least compared to what you hear from 168 times the distance LOL)

Try blocking 1 ear and putting the other one 1 inch away from the speaker and see if that changes how you hear the tone

Get some good isolation headphones and listen to the mic as you play, if you can get someone else to help you move the mic around and try it on and off axis as you play until you find the sweet spot that a good quick way to get a more desirable tone without having to keep running back and forth to do it yourself

You're not alone in this. You just need to remember that if you want to record something pretty close to the way you hear it you either need to put the mic where your ears would normally be in relation to the sound, or put you ears where the mic would normally be and tweak the sound until it sounds good again. After that mess around with finessing the final position and you should be good to go

Yep. Awesome feedback, thank you. I'm seeing a pattern in the reply's here!

As I said in my previous post, I like the sound of the amp in the room, and obviously don't like the sound of the amp direct.

I have been using a Condenser room mic in conjunction with the SM57 close-mic, but I've only been mixing these 80%-20%. My room mic sound is fairly deep, distant and echo-y and I didn't think it was adding too much of the amp's sound to the mix; only a bit of 'live' ambiance.

I think my best bet is to experiment (probably with the help of someone as you suggested) with getting a nice solid room-mic sound and then mix in a little direct mic to add some 'body' to the sound. Does this sound like a good Idea?

Cheers,
FM

 

[pure.fusion]

For those interested, this was a good article on mic'ing amps. It had examples of room mic'ing as well.

Guitar Amp Recording

Cheers,
FM

 

[grimtraveller]

Just struggling with the basic fact that after you mic something up, it's just not the same during play back as it is in real life. That's what mics do - even the good ones.

Yep. Embrace the sad reality. You may find that you can still dig your music for what it is. It's worth bearing in mind that the song we may hear sometimes in our head is infinitely better than the recorded, real life with flaws version that eventually comes to exist. But I can never remember what was in my head once I actually start working on the song. Vocal and instrument sounds can be a bit like that. Like cameras, mics can lie......

 

[CaptGoldenEars]

I've never been unsatisfied with my sm57 on my tube amps. It's getting everything else to sound good that i struggle with. But with the help of HR and all the wonderfully kind people here, i'm getting closer.

 

[pure.fusion]

Three days, three guitars, two mic's, two amps and many hours of recording, testing and trying to acheive the ultimate guitar sound.

Why am i not surprised that I can't achieve the sound of all of my idols with my inexpensive gear!

As a home recorder, I am officially drawing the line and not letting this hold me back. Near enough is now good enough, I'm just going to choose the best I came across and go with it. No more buying amps and pedals and wasting days.

.... I am a little more knowledgeable now than I wsa before, so a good outcome I guess.

Cheers,
FM

 

[Murdersgalore]

Yeah, the sm57 is a good instrument mic but it is anything but transparent. If you like the sound of your amp in the room but it seems boomy on your condenser you need to treat your room to dampen those reflections.

 

[Farview]

I always adjust the amp so that it sounds good through the mic in the control room. The sound you are trying to capture is the important thing, not what it sounds like in the room. There is no one in the room and the rest of the world will listen to that guitar through the mic.

 

[pure.fusion]

Yeah, the sm57 is a good instrument mic but it is anything but transparent. If you like the sound of your amp in the room but it seems boomy on your condenser you need to treat your room to dampen those reflections.

Been there, done that. :~) A great improvement.

FM

 

[pure.fusion]

I always adjust the amp so that it sounds good through the mic in the control room. The sound you are trying to capture is the important thing, not what it sounds like in the room. There is no one in the room and the rest of the world will listen to that guitar through the mic.

As much as I tried to capture the sound I was listening to, I think I agree with you.

The best results for me so far is to mic up, record, assess the sound of the guitar (Too buzzy, too middy, not enough bottom end) and adjust the amp or mic to suit. Via this method I've creeped towards something acceptable.

FM

 

[benherron.rrr]

just another thing. . . if you havn't already, raise your amp of the ground, I have a stand that my amp sits on and is angled upwards towards my ear, it helps me hear the tone easier and helps to stop the amp vibrating the floor which vibrates the mic stand, which vibrates the mic which eaquals boomy.

Using your ear to find the right spot is top notch advice.

9 times out of 10 I use 2 or 3 different mics on my amp, just cause it gives me more to play with, but I generally start off with a 57 placed at the edge of the cone about an inch away, I never like the result but its a good starting point. using some good phones I play my guitar and move the mic around in all directions. Doing this helps you learn how moving the mic changes the tone, and your listening to the result rather then guessing which is always best practice

 

[Farview]

As much as I tried to capture the sound I was listening to, I think I agree with you.

The best results for me so far is to mic up, record, assess the sound of the guitar (Too buzzy, too middy, not enough bottom end) and adjust the amp or mic to suit. Via this method I've creeped towards something acceptable.

FM

I hav3e it kind of easy because I have a separate room with the cabinet miced up in it. I have the amp head in the control room with me. So I never hear what it sounds like in the room, only what it sounds like through the monitors.

Here's the cool thing, if you do that and get a good guitar sound on tape then play a show with those same settings, you will be able to hear yourself better on stage, the sound guy will like you, the audience will hear a better tone, and it will sound better in the monitors. You are much better off finding a great guitar sound through a mic and getting used to what it sounds like in the room than trying to do it the other way around.