What triggers do you use?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jrhager84
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Simman said:
And the best way to do this is.... get yourself a set of freaking triggers and a cheap drum brain, spit the midi directly into a MIDI track and/or trigger the DFHS live and be done with it.

All this talk about using Drumagog and/or using mics for triggers is complete B.S. and I guarantee you will not work if you want to play/track/trigger in real time. You will spend more time dickin' around trying fix miss triggers, mic bleed and a long list of other nonsense. But it’s your time…

I apologize for getting a bit heated but come on....
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Try reading the thread next time before going on a rant. If he wanted to trigger DFH live I would not have given the same advice. For recording purposes obviously it's a question of whether he is willing to take a couple of (small) extra steps to convert it, or go out and buy triggers and a drum brain. Not everyone is willing to part with their money when they can accomplish the same thing another way. But if he is, then by all means get some triggers and a drum brain, because yes, it would be easier over the long term.
 
Mistral said:
Try reading the thread next time before going on a rant. If he wanted to trigger DFH live I would not have given the same advice. For recording purposes obviously it's a question of whether he is willing to take a couple of (small) extra steps to convert it, or go out and buy triggers and a drum brain. Not everyone is willing to part with their money when they can accomplish the same thing another way. But if he is, then by all means get some triggers and a drum brain, because yes, it would be easier over the long term.
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First, I did read the thread and suggest you look at the original question as well. The guy asked about triggers because he wanted to use DFHS samples and not his acoustic drums. To that redard I provided a reommendation of using a drum brain with the triggers. Why? Because it is the best solution to address the original question I've found in more than 20 years of playing,recording, and gigging an acoustic/electronic hybrid kit.

As for going on a rant; I don't think I went off that bad especially considering some I've seen on this forum. :D

Nonetheless, I will give you there is always more then one way to skin a proverbial cat; however, there is a point of diminished returns. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and part with that hard earned cash.
 
Farview said:
Yes. I do it all the time. You can plug a mic into a drum brain (with the right cable) and use that to trigger the sounds.

A trigger is just a transducer, as is a mic. It's advantage is that it only picks up the sound of the drumhead that it is touching. No bleed.

The guts of a trigger are the same as the guts of an acoustic guitar pickup, (the ones under the saddle) and we plug those into mic preamps all the time.
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And you can even get really fancy with the triggering, and run each trigger through a graphic EQ, and set each drum's trigger to a different EQ frequency to make sure that there is ZERO crosstalk. :D


Tim
 
I'm still on the fence about this... The reason why I was thinking mics is because I heard triggers don't capture dynamics very well...but then again I suppose a mic would do the same thing. Another problem I'm running into is this:

I have 6 toms, and the DKFHS kit only has 5. I have to pitch down a tom sound, and assign it to a rimshot, and trigger the rimshot on tomX for every time tomY hits...it gets even more complicated..

I use a firestudio to record (which only has 8 inputs) My 6 toms kick and snare take up the 8 tracks, which means no overheads. Again, even more complicated:

I have an M-Audio Delta 1010-LT in my system, but alas; Cubase only allows one ASIO driver at a time, so it's not possible to use the 2 XLR inputs I have in conjunction with my firestudio...

It's just funny how everything works out against me....*sigh*

any ideas guys? Thanks again for all the help,

-Joel
 
I just thought of something (and I can thank you for this Tim)

I have an analog Mackie 1604-VLZ pro mixer... If I run all 6 toms into it, I can assign them diff frequencies (by making one all high no low, one low no high, one mid, one combo etc. As long as they're SLIGHTLY off, they'll be seperate. Then I could trigger the sounds in one track instead of 6, right? Then I could use all my OH mics, hat mics, etc. Please tell me I'm on to something. I need a break!!! LOL
 
jrhager84 said:
I'm still on the fence about this... The reason why I was thinking mics is because I heard triggers don't capture dynamics very well...but then again I suppose a mic would do the same thing. Another problem I'm running into is this:
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The triggers themselves will capture dynamics better than mics will. It's the drum brains that they tend to be attached to that suck the dynamics out of a performance.

jrhager84 said:
I have 6 toms, and the DKFHS kit only has 5. I have to pitch down a tom sound, and assign it to a rimshot, and trigger the rimshot on tomX for every time tomY hits...it gets even more complicated..

I use a firestudio to record (which only has 8 inputs) My 6 toms kick and snare take up the 8 tracks, which means no overheads. Again, even more complicated:
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You have to ask yourself if you really, really need 6 toms. I have a set with 7 toms, I can easily dump 3 of them it it becomes a problem.
 
jrhager84 said:
I just thought of something (and I can thank you for this Tim)

I have an analog Mackie 1604-VLZ pro mixer... If I run all 6 toms into it, I can assign them diff frequencies (by making one all high no low, one low no high, one mid, one combo etc. As long as they're SLIGHTLY off, they'll be seperate. Then I could trigger the sounds in one track instead of 6, right? Then I could use all my OH mics, hat mics, etc. Please tell me I'm on to something. I need a break!!! LOL
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There will be way too much bleed. You might be able to just have two mics per track (bringing you down to 3) and you could manually cut the tracks up separating the two toms on each track to their own track.
 
I need the 6 toms because of what I play (I play rock with various tom-riffs that would sound DEAD if you're playing the same tone over and over again). I also like to have as much to work with as possible. I mean seriously, it's like asking a guitarist to ditch 3 of their strings cause they don't really need them.

Drums you get one base sound per item (there are exceptions, but you really don't rimshot or sidestick toms)

So I've got 10 cymbals, 6 toms, a bass drum, a snare and a hi-hat. That's a total of 19 sounds...So I have maybe +/- 25-30 sounds to work with. A guitarist has 6 strings and how many frets?

Sorry to get a little hot under the collar, but I think people dumbify drums too much nowadays. If you really wanted to push it further, I don't even NEED toms to perform. I just need hats, a kick and a snare.

I'm hereby making you be Mike Portnoy's drum tech for 90 days! LOL

-Joel
 
Farview said:
The triggers themselves will capture dynamics better than mics will. It's the drum brains that they tend to be attached to that suck the dynamics out of a performance.
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AMEN! I was jut about to reply with the same line of thought. The signal translation is essentially limite to 0 (or OFF)-127(Full strength/ON) steps, and it just isn't as dynamic dynamic when it gets down to it. They would probably need about 1,000 incremental steps to cover the dynamics of a human playing a drum. It will be here at some point, but they are goingto have to utilize the processing power of a PC's CPU to do it. I talkedto Al Adinolfi about it at one point ,and he told me I'd have to hire an engineer to put my idea into play - ythat's what he did when Boom Theory built their own TMI/Sound Module.

My idea was to create a 2-piece unit that had analog TMI, that would connect to essentially what would be a Drum computer that had a firewire connection and a CD or DVDS burner built in with a hard drive, and have something like 256Megs of RAM DDR on each channel for headroom.

Then you would have the ability to record the sounds, put them on a PC and modify them any way you wanted, and then load them back into the machine and you would have the EXACT sounds that you wanted.
My design though, was for being able to use a regular kit live, and having triggered sounds.

You have to ask yourself if you really, really need 6 toms. I have a set with 7 toms, I can easily dump 3 of them it it becomes a problem.
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Well, technically I have 9 toms, (6",8",10",12",14",15", & 16" Rack toms, with18" & 20" Floors) but all I ever bother setting up is the 15" rack, and the 18" & 20" floors.

Sometimes I would set up the little toms for some Iron Maiden kind of stuff, but I tend to play "Big" Tom fills - where I leave a lot of space between the tom parts.... think "Arena" Rock - Foreigner, Def Leppard, Led Zeppelin, etc.

or I'll play some what Tribal when I ride the floor toms rather than a ride cymbal or hi-hat.


Tim
 
IMO if you have a really unconventional drum setup then you may as well bite the bullet and do what it takes to make those drums sound great with a live recording. Otherwise, make whatever sacrifices you need to in order to get them converted to MIDI. If that means losing a couple of toms, so be it.
 
jrhager84 said:
Sorry to get a little hot under the collar, but I think people dumbify drums too much nowadays. If you really wanted to push it further, I don't even NEED toms to perform. I just need hats, a kick and a snare.
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I went through that as well. That's why my kit has so many toms. It's not really a matter of dumbing down the drum part, it's a matter of being more creative with a smaller kit. Coming up with a more interesting part instead of just playing something on a different set of toms.

Anyway, If you have determined that you need 6 toms, you will need to get as many mics and inputs necessary to get the job done. That just comes along with having so many drums. Just like having to get a bigger vehicle to transport them, having to bring your own mics to a show because the venue won't have that many, etc...

A friends band has a drummer with 7 toms, he went out and got internal mics installed so he wouldn't have that problem at shows. Now, half the time, he rolls up on a gig and the PA doesn't have 10 inputs to dedicate to the drums. He's still screwed. What is the point of doing all that fancy drum work on toms that no one but you will hear?

It's all part of the consequences of the decision.
 
/rant warning

I understand WHERE you're coming from, but I disagree with you on the perspective. I think it's a travesty that people almost shun those with larger drum kits...Why should I have to be "more creative" on a smaller kit? Ok, on that same note, 2 strings come off the bass, and 3 come off the guitar. They'll bitch at first, but I'll just tell them to be "more creative" on their remaining strings...

Also, your friend must not be as diligent as myself. If the venue doesn't have enough mics, it doesn't bother me, as I have all mine. I'd set up my drum mixer, and mix everything down into a lesser number of inputs. Where there's a will there's a way, and I'll never agree with people recommending smaller kits, because it's an inhibitor. It is good to practice stuff on smaller kits so you diversify your sound, but afterwards, if you take a person that can be "super creative" on a cocktail kit, you put them behind a behemoth and the sky's the limit. It's all mathematics.

I think it also gives onus to how venues really don't give a shit about the drums.

I have nothing against smaller kits, as I have plans on aquiring a gig-kit to use for the divey venues we have here. I do, however, have a problem always being hard-sold (not by you guys) into playing a smaller kit. People have even went so far as to make fun of my kit saying: "Uh oh. Here comes Peart." Nothing pisses me off more...

/end rant

I do respect your opinions guys, and I appreciate your input!
 
jrhager84 said:
/rant warning

I understand WHERE you're coming from, but I disagree with you on the perspective. I think it's a travesty that people almost shun those with larger drum kits...Why should I have to be "more creative" on a smaller kit? Ok, on that same note, 2 strings come off the bass, and 3 come off the guitar. They'll bitch at first, but I'll just tell them to be "more creative" on their remaining strings...
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Unless you are expected to play melodies withing a particular range, it's not the same thing.

jrhager84 said:
Also, your friend must not be as diligent as myself. If the venue doesn't have enough mics, it doesn't bother me, as I have all mine. I'd set up my drum mixer, and mix everything down into a lesser number of inputs. Where there's a will there's a way,
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He did have the mic internally mounted, he just hasn't bothered with the submixer.

Anyway, if you are willing to go through that hassle and expense, why are you trying to cheap out on a recording interface that would allow you to do what you need to do?


jrhager84 said:
I think it also gives onus to how venues really don't give a shit about the drums.
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It isn't that they don't give a shit, they just don't see the point in buying and maintining an extra $1000 worth of equipment for the 2 times a year that someone comes in with more than a 6 piece kit. On top of the fact that they don't give a shit about bands in general, not just the drums.

[/QUOTE]
 
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I understand where you're coming from, and half out of frustration, and half out of weakness, I'm deciding to by a small kit to gig on... I'm thinking a 4-5 piece fusion kit or something.

I just can't stand fighting this monster kit all the time...*sigh*

It's gonna suck not playing on her, but that's the way it goes...I'm thinking acrylic kit...we'll just see...Any good smaller kits you guys know of?
 
jrhager84 said:
It's gonna suck not playing on her, but that's the way it goes...I'm thinking acrylic kit...we'll just see...Any good smaller kits you guys know of?
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What price range are you looking in? The low line Gretch kits can (sometimes) be really nice sounding. You have to find the good one, but when you do....

All the high end stuff is about the same quality, it's just personal preference at that point.
 
I'm actually looking at getting a nice little 4-5pc spaun acrylic kit. I want shallow drums (except for the bass). I like how spaun's toms are all relatively shallow, with a long bass tube. You guys know of anywhere that might sell good used kits? I'm not going to be horribly picky, but I also know what I want. Thanks dudes!
 
Probably somewhere around 500-1000 depending on condition for some used kits. I dont' feel like shelling out 6500 bucks for a new spaun kit.
 
I have a yamaha dt xpress brain with some nice roland triggers and I've used the midi out for recording my snare and kick. this set up has served me well but these days I mostly take it to shows and use it for its analogue output through a PA.
I use primairly drumagog these days for record triggering, I think it does a competent job and when I've had to record other bands its a time saver given theres no gear to set up.
the only issue i've had is that I use a double bass pedal on one bass drum so when I'm pushing around 220 BPM and up on the kick the intervals between hammer hits are so close that they attenuate the beater head thus dropping the db level thus dropping the signal below the normal threshold needed for a single kick hit.
I've used a volume track in cubase to map out where increases in db are needed to meet the set threshold for the trigger and thus can maintain a constant db level throughout the track withought an overall db gain which can lead to misfires where there are larger spikes. an outboard compressor during record can take care of this to if you set the ratio correctly depending on the dynamic range.
This also works well for fast snare rolls or one handed rolls which have the same problem.
it gets me clean blast beats and thats where its at
 
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