What strategy would you take? (preamps and interfaces discussion)

[whig]

Hello folks,

I'm new around here and have been browsing your comments on preamps and the like. I have a bit of a dilemma and would just like some ideas on how any of you may approach this situation.

I am always in progress of improving my home studio. I work with a very portable system currently: a Sager notebook and a presonus Firebox. I use a Rode NT1 and am currently recording solo acoustic type music (a classical guitar project and a folky rock project).

My birthday is tomorrow (woot!) and someone is making a donation to my studio fund. With this donation I'm interested in purchasing two of the Cascade Fathead ribbon microphones. And here begins my problem.

My intention is to begin recording using all three microphones: the two fatheads as an xy source for the acoustic guitar, and the nt1a as a vocal mic. The Presonus Firebox only has two phantom powered preamps on it and it is my understanding that the ribbons need phantom power too.

There are a lot of options to fix this problem, and really I'm just looking for others' input.

What I'm considering:
1) Replace the Firebox with another presonus unit that has more inputs (ie the Firestudio Tube specifically). The dilemma here is how long it would take to scrape together the funds to acquire one. I currently import about 80 dollars to my studio budget monthly. So it would be about 10 months before I could purchase the unit. I thought about buying an el cheapo preamp (a la ART Tube) just to use in the time being.

The pro of this is, of course, the future expansion. I am not recording any bands currently, and don't imagine doing it anytime soon -- but having the flexibilty would be nice should the occassion arise.

2) Being that I am not looking to record any bands, the idea of spending a little more on a stand alone preamp (Presonus Eureka, Grace 101, or the Joe Meek) and simply use the other inputs on the Firebox. This is a purchase I could make relatively quickly instead of the 10 month hangover.

I do not know how these other preamps stack up against what comes on the Firestudio Tube. I am a man of limited means, and because of this, buying something that is 300-600 dollars, then going back and getting a unit like the firestudio tube on top of that really would be discouraging.

3) Buy nothing. Is the idea bunk to begin with? Is recording acoustic guitar and vocals in one take such a hot idea? I imagine there is going to be a good amount of bleed. Should I simply do them in two takes and keep my precious pennies to go toward another piece of equipment down the road?

Just a couple general questions:
Are the Firestudio Tube preamps on par with the Bluetube (which I have heard little good about)?

I'm happy with my Firebox, which led me to considering the higher model presonus interfaces. Should I be considering an alternate interface (something preferrably less than the $700 I'd spend on the Firestudio Tube with similar quantities of in's and out's)?

I'm not the sort of person who can afford the thousand dollar preamps. I want the best quality that my wallet can withstand. I'm not doing this professionally (it's more that I want my children to have something to say "hey, daddy made this").

Anyway, any input would be gladly appreciated. Thanks a lot.

 

[MOFO Pro]

A great performance is best to capture live (guitar and vocals), yeah there's bleed, but if the performance is good, and captured correctly it really doesn't matter, the interplay between the mics can actually widen the sound stage. I know, being an acoustic guitarist/vocalist, that I give a better technical performance when tracked individually, but the overall performance is much better when tracked together as just that... an overall performance.

It's very difficult to track yourself through multiple mics, especially when vocals and headphones are concerned... you really can't hear the performance until after you're done and listening to playback... but through trial and error, and a measure of patience... the results can be very good

 

[mixsit]

Does the Firebox allow four tracks at once, 2 mics + 2 lines? If so, maybe do a stereo pair picking up both guitar and voice at the same time for now, add a second pre amp for three and four mic options with the line in's later.
Guitar mics + a vocal mic can be done but it is often also a compromise with phasing from the beed of the two locations/distances at the same time. Although also, fig-of 8's like the Fathead can be very effective in that respect where you direct the side nulls of each to the bleed source of the other.

 

[whig]

Thank you for your notes.

You hit the nail on the head as far as the performance is concerned. I have found that, while it makes sense to track seperately for sound quality's sake, the performance doesn't have the same "gutsy-ness" to it. Again, I'm no professional. The songs I've written I've always played and practiced singing and playing simultaneously, so I'm sure this is all reasonable.

I have recorded three sound sources with the Firebox before when I was testing out how to record the guitar. I ran the guitar's piezo, the NT1, and a Shure sm57. I ended up feeling the piezo and sm57 were extra effort that really didn't bring much value to the overall sound.

I do not have any experience with phase issues (yet). I'm a fairly patient guy, and once I have the preamp / interface dilemma sorted out, I'll have nothing but time to figure it out.

Again, thank you all for your ideas and comments. If anyone else has ideas, please add to the discussion.

 

[tdukex]

Hello folks,

...and it is my understanding that the ribbons need phantom power too.

Not true. These are phantom power "safe." Phantom power may damage a lot of ribbon mics.

 

[dickiefunk]

You could add something like an M-Audio DMP3. This would give you an extra 2 decent clean mic pres to your additional setup and would be a cost effective way of doing this.

 

[whig]

Not true. These are phantom power "safe." Phantom power may damage a lot of ribbon mics.

Ok. I think I need to educate myself better in that case. If they don't need phantom power, I don't need to concern myself with getting them phantom power. I just have to get them to the line inputs on the back of the Firebox. I can use the phantom powered inputs for the NT1

Suggestions?

 

[Simman]

Ok. I think I need to educate myself better in that case. If they don't need phantom power, I don't need to concern myself with getting them phantom power. I just have to get them to the line inputs on the back of the Firebox. I can use the phantom powered inputs for the NT1

Suggestions?

One other thing to consider is a ribbon mic need pres with considerable gain as well.

 

[Chili]

Another option, and I may be out in left field...

Keep your current set up. Track the vocal and guitar together in one take to capture best performance using two mics. Then track a 2nd take with just the guitar using two mics. That would essentially give you 4 guitar tracks: the bleed into vocal mic, the first tracked mono guitar, the 2nd tracked stereo guitar. If you can capture the p/u through an instrument jack, you should do that too.

imho

 

[whig]

One other thing to consider is a ribbon mic need pres with considerable gain as well.

In my search for more information this morning, I noticed a lot of comments indicating the same thing. I looked up the specs on my Firebox, and those preamps peg out at 45 dB. The general consensus I've found was at least 60 dB, and preferably higher.

I need to run through my shortlist to see which of these preamps qualify. What would you qualify as a low-noise, high gain preamp?

 

[MOFO Pro]

I just have to get them to the line inputs on the back of the Firebox.

Nope... no way... no mic will drive a line in without a preamp

 

[mixsit]

.. I'm interested in purchasing two of the Cascade Fathead ribbon microphones. And here begins my problem.

My intention is to begin recording using all three microphones: the two fatheads as an xy source for the acoustic guitar, and the nt1a as a vocal mic..

Just to run this by while considering the Fatheads. A crossed pair of fig-8's is a Blumlein pair. 50% of the pickup is to the rear.
Sorry to presume and such seems fairly specialized as a primary to-go setup?

 

[whig]

Just to run this by while considering the Fatheads. A crossed pair of fig-8's is a Blumlein pair. 50% of the pickup is to the rear.
Sorry to presume and such seems fairly specialized as a primary to-go setup?

I misled you. I didn't mean to imply that I was always on the go; more I was trying to say that between the firebox and laptop, I had set up a portable rig. I have a dedicated room now, and am looking to expand my capabilities a bit.

I have been a bit discouraged in searching for preamps. I am beginning to wonder if I am over thinking this.

I am not happy with the output I receive from the Presonus Firebox preamps on the interface in combination with a SM58. I have to turn the gain all the way up and do get a large amount of noise when I do. In comparison, am I really needing more gain on the ribbons than on the SM58?

When looking at the Presonus Firestudio Tube, I noticed that the preamps are a little stronger gainwise, but not so much of a numerical difference that I would call it considerable.

Someone on another site suggested the FMR RNP. I am now thinking that I'm at least going to need a two channel preamp. I really need to plant a money tree in the backyard.

 

[Simman]

In my search for more information this morning, I noticed a lot of comments indicating the same thing. I looked up the specs on my Firebox, and those preamps peg out at 45 dB. The general consensus I've found was at least 60 dB, and preferably higher.

I need to run through my shortlist to see which of these preamps qualify. What would you qualify as a low-noise, high gain preamp?

On the Cascade site look at the RODE D-PowerPlug as an option. They will give you a +20dB bump but you need to use phantom power to power them.

 

[mixsit]

I misled you. I didn't mean to imply that I was always on the go; more I was trying to say that between the firebox and laptop, I had set up a portable rig. I have a dedicated room now, and am looking to expand my capabilities a bit. ..

I'm sorry, that was supposed to be 'as your primary go-to set up'.
I was curious first when you referred to a pair of fig-8's as an 'XY source (they won't) and or why you landed on them in general for your app.

 

[second skin]

what i would do....

keep the firebox for now. get the ribbons if that is what you are set on for your stereo pair although some small diaphragm condensers would not be a bad choice either, especially if you want to do double duty as drum overheads. add an m-audio DMP3 to get 2 more channels of preamp. these are nice and clean with lots of headroom. it should work really well for your ribbons.

for now you could do a drumset with the 4 channels that the firebox offers if you go for a recorderman setup. and you could get a lot of mileage out of that setup for your acoustic stuff.

then you can be saving up your cash and if you do end up recording some band stuff maybe spring for more channels later on. if you don't end up going that way then you could get a really nice preamp or something instead if you feel that you need to. either way the DMP3 will take you a long way for very little money.

 

[whig]

I'm sorry, that was supposed to be 'as your primary go-to set up'.
I was curious first when you referred to a pair of fig-8's as an 'XY source (they won't) and or why you landed on them in general for your app.

Ah. Ok talk about crossed wires twice over now. Honestly, it was my intention to go with the Shure SM-81s. I had read a lot of positive things about those mics in regards to acoustic guitar recording. This is one of my most important goals: to record acoustic guitar well. I am content with my Rode Nt1 for the time being. I am recording a project for my brother and had intended to buy the SM-81s to record his songs.

However, as I mentioned earlier, I have very limited funds that I can send toward the studio. I had heard about the Fatheads on the PSN podcast. I found every review to be glowing. With the price being considerably less than the SM81's, I decided the Fatheads would be an option. I'm relatively new to microphones on a whole - and was actually wondering about the application of figure 8s. It was more of a situation that I was going to trust the reviews and shootouts I had heard and make that purchase. The 'xy' reference was jargon I had picked up in researching the small condenser microphones and simply misapplied here.

So essentially, I initially thought the fatheads would be a wonderful marriage of convience because of the price to quality ratio. The soundbytes I've heard on acoustic guitar (my primary recording source) has me somewhat hooked. Of course that leaves a lot of room for expectations to fail as I clearly do not have the preamps and room setup that the folks who recorded those soundbytes have.

The other option was the set of Rode Nt5's or saving for the pair of SM81's. Neither of these options really solve my limited preamp allotment, as I will still need at least one more phantom power source to achieve my goal of stereo guitar + vocal mic.

I have also considered picking up a second NT1 and using it as a vocal mic while using the other that I currently own as a guitar mic. This would be a simpler set up and would not require the purchase of a preamp. I am not sure how much the stereo recording mics are worth to my projects, but until recently I had convinced myself that I needed them. Now, as I see the price tag rising, I am not so sure.

 

[whig]

what i would do....

keep the firebox for now. get the ribbons if that is what you are set on for your stereo pair although some small diaphragm condensers would not be a bad choice either, especially if you want to do double duty as drum overheads. add an m-audio DMP3 to get 2 more channels of preamp. these are nice and clean with lots of headroom. it should work really well for your ribbons.

for now you could do a drumset with the 4 channels that the firebox offers if you go for a recorderman setup. and you could get a lot of mileage out of that setup for your acoustic stuff.

then you can be saving up your cash and if you do end up recording some band stuff maybe spring for more channels later on. if you don't end up going that way then you could get a really nice preamp or something instead if you feel that you need to. either way the DMP3 will take you a long way for very little money.

Thank you for the wonderful post. I had another person message me with the M-Audio DMP3 suggestion. It does seem to be a very realistic way to go as far as the budget is concerned. The deal with my brother was that he would pitch in the money for one Fathead for a birthday present and I'd go ahead and buy the second to produce the stereo set. With the money I currently have saved, I can afford the both of them and the DMP3 (nearly to the penny).

I am not 100% sold on the ribbons. The reason I'm leaning so heavily that direction was due to the price to quality ratio. After indoctrinating myself with Slau's reviews on PSN, I have nearly excluded all other options from my search.

I don't know if you have experience with this specifically, but if someone may have input: is there a consensus that the DMP3 would have enough output to get a good signal from the Fatheads? I had read a few comments in other threads (here or elsewhere, don't honestly remember) that it did require a lot of gain.

As of today, I plan on ordering the fatheads and testing them with my firebox. Depending on the weakness of the signal, I will go ahead and pitch out the funds for a preamp such as the DMP3. It seems that model consistently is favored in polls and such over the Presonus / ART equipment.

I will not be making the purchase until sometime this week. So I'm still seeking advice that might scare me away from or affirm my tendancies.

Thank you all so much for your input so far.