mshilarious
Banned
Elmo89m said:
Well if they are power chords, they have no thirds, so they aren't major or minor. If F# really is major, then you're just playing with the major/minor tonality which is common.
Well if they are power chords, they have no thirds, so they aren't major or minor. If F# really is major, then you're just playing with the major/minor tonality which is common.
Elmo89m
New member
how would i know which three chords to plug into the I ii iii IV V vi vii format?
Elmo89m
New member
okay i see what you mean. is thatwhy u could us F#m of A for the key becuase it isnt defined to be major or minor
mshilarious
Banned
Elmo89m said:
Well that's the trick. If we start with the assumption that all of the chords' roots fall on scale degrees (a dangerous assumption), then with F#, A, D, E, you could be in the keys of G, D, A, or their relative minors:
G: vii - ii - V - iii
Em (relative of G): ii - iv - (b)VII - i
D: iii - V - I - ii
Bm: v - (b)VII - III - iv
A: vi - I - IV - V
F#m: i - (b)III - (b)VI - (b)VII
I put the (b) in parentheses because those notes are flatted in the minor mode, but they aren't actually notated that way because they aren't modifications. So in trying to be clear I probably muddied it up
Generally you'd prefer a key where the chord progression contains the tonic. You also like to see a V or even a v. Finally, if the I or i is at the beginning or end of a progression, that's another good hint.
If you change some of the notes so they don't all fit in a single key, then the analysis gets more complicated.
Back to your song, if you want to modulate a bit, say in a chorus or a bridge, you have many choices. You could move decidedly into F# with an F# - C# progression. You could move pretty easily into Em with a B. You could confuse the issue with F# - G - A - B. The lack of thirds in power chords creates an ambiguous tonality that you can change pretty easily.
Elmo89m
New member
so with those four chords i would pick which key i want to play in basically and then in order to make it sound right i would just sing in that key to right.
famous beagle
Well-known member
mshilarious said:Well that's the trick. If we start with the assumption that all of the chords' roots fall on scale degrees (a dangerous assumption), then with F#, A, D, E, you could be in the keys of G, D, A, or their relative minors:
G: vii - ii - V - iii
Em (relative of G): ii - iv - (b)VII - i
D: iii - V - I - ii
Bm: v - (b)VII - III - iv
A: vi - I - IV - V
F#m: i - (b)III - (b)VI - (b)VII
I put the (b) in parentheses because those notes are flatted in the minor mode, but they aren't actually notated that way because they aren't modifications. So in trying to be clear I probably muddied it up
Generally you'd prefer a key where the chord progression contains the tonic. You also like to see a V or even a v. Finally, if the I or i is at the beginning or end of a progression, that's another good hint.
If you change some of the notes so they don't all fit in a single key, then the analysis gets more complicated.
Back to your song, if you want to modulate a bit, say in a chorus or a bridge, you have many choices. You could move decidedly into F# with an F# - C# progression. You could move pretty easily into Em with a B. You could confuse the issue with F# - G - A - B. The lack of thirds in power chords creates an ambiguous tonality that you can change pretty easily.
Actually, if he's in fact playing F#5, then this progression is not likely in G. Granted F# is the 7th tone in G major, but F#5 contains C#, which is not in the key of G. Therefore, G is probably not a likely option.
Elmo, you never answered the other questions (or if you did I missed it). Do you sing, and are you the songwriter? Does the vocal melody ever use the note A#? If not, then you can bet with probably 95% certainty that this song is either in F#m or the relative A major. If the last chord in the song is F#5, then it's almost for sure in F#m.
Mshilarious: I actually always use the b sign when referring to Roman numerals in the minor mode. That way, there's no misunderstanding what you mean. A bIII chord is always a bIII. So if you're in some kind of A key (major or minor), C major will always be bIII. This is much clearer to me, because the numerals always correspond to scale degrees. I understand why people do that, because they're just saying that it's understood that the 3rd in a minor scale is flatted. But what do you do when you're in A minor and you have a C# chord? Do you write #III? That seems weird, because you never really have a "#" 3rd. It's natural (major) or flatted (minor). (I don't mean that you never have a major 3rd that's not a sharp note---obviously C# is the major 3rd of A---but I'm saying no one ever says "this chord has a sharp 3rd." They say "major 3rd." But people DO say "flat 3rd," and that's the same as "minor 3rd.")
Anyway, that's the thing I never liked about that system of leaving off the flats in minor key Roman numerals. In my opinion, it assumes too much. Maybe it's because in my music I use so many borrowed chords that I run into a lot of problems like that. For instance, here are the chords to one of my songs. I'm interested, if you don't mind, how you would label the chords. I have my way, but I'd like see how someone from your school of thought would do it. It's in A minor.
Verse: Am - Cmaj7 - Fmaj7 - G6
Chorus: Dm - G - C - Bb - Dm - A (major chord ... not a typo) - Bb - F
Dm - G - Ab - Db
then back to verse (Am)
Elmo89m
New member
im the songwriter in a four piece alt. rock band...yeah it ends on F#m and im not sure if the vocal line hits A#m
Elmo89m
New member
im actually getting things pretty good right now i think
mshilarious
Banned
famous beagle said:
I hadn't identified the problem as the frequency of borrowed chords, but I see that makes sense.
OK:
Verse: Am - Cmaj7 - Fmaj7 - G6
i - IIImaj7 - VImaj7 - VII6
Heh, caught me. If I presume you know the III, VI, and VII are flatted, then I should presume you'd know the 7ths are major
Chorus: Dm - G - C - Bb - Dm - A - Bb - F
iv - VII - III - bII - iv - I - bII - VI
Dm - G - Ab - Db
iv - VII - bI (!!) - bIV
I'm not sure I like that solution. Doesn't that lend more of a harmonic minor feel? So maybe G# - C#, #VII - #III? That more understandably drops back to A via F#. Wish I had a keyboard, my ear training never got anywhere near this.
famous beagle
Well-known member
mshilarious said:I hadn't identified the problem as the frequency of borrowed chords, but I see that makes sense.
OK:
Verse: Am - Cmaj7 - Fmaj7 - G6
i - IIImaj7 - VImaj7 - VII6
Heh, caught me. If I presume you know the III, VI, and VII are flatted, then I should presume you'd know the 7ths are major
Chorus: Dm - G - C - Bb - Dm - A - Bb - F
iv - VII - III - bII - iv - I - bII - VI
Dm - G - Ab - Db
iv - VII - bI (!!) - bIV
I'm not sure I like that solution. Doesn't that lend more of a harmonic minor feel? So maybe G# - C#, #VII - #III? That more understandably drops back to A via F#. Wish I had a keyboard, my ear training never got anywhere near this.
yeah ... see though .. I think this was a little unfair, because you don't know the vocal melody. Now that I think about it, the chorus actually kind of modulates to C major (except for that very brief Dm-A-Bb-F that tonicizes F for a second.) So, the Ab chord at the end definitely sounds like a bVI chord borrowed from C minor. The Db is pretty odd, but it basically kind of sounds like a bII chord in C. In then resolves, somewhat unexpectedly, to Am instead of C. So, yeah, this song would have to be analyzed with a modulation to C major in the chorus for it to make sense.
Elmo, can you play the melody on the guitar? Do you know the notes on the neck to see if ever hits an A# note?
mshilarious
Banned
famous beagle said:
Hmmm. I wanted it as a modulation to Dm:
Chorus: Dm - G - C - Bb - Dm - A - Bb - F
i - IV - VII - VI - i - V - VI - III
Dm - G - G# - C#
i - IV - #IV - #VII
famous beagle
Well-known member
mshilarious said:
Sorry. No Modulation for you!!!!
Elmo89m
New member
seven isnt major....its diminished isnt it?
mshilarious
Banned
Elmo89m said:
In a major key, yes. But in a minor key it's the same chord as the V in major:
C - G
I - V
Am - G
i - (b)VII
versus:
C - Bdim
I - vii°
Am - Bdim
i - ii°
jimistone
long standing member
my method is:
"if it sounds cool...its right"
"if it sounds cool...its right"
famous beagle
Well-known member
jimistone said:
well, then ... we just clearly disagree there. My method is, and has always been, "if it sound right...it's cool."
but to each his own
Rokket
Trailing Behind Again
Explains why a song I wrote with the chords D A G is in G, and Em scale worked to solo over it. Actually no, that still confused me.Purge said:
mshilarious
Banned
Rokket said:
It's modal. You are probably playing your solo in E dorian:
E F# G A B C# D
Which corresponds with D major.
As for your song being in G, Em is the relative minor of G, so perhaps you are loosely switching being Em or G and E dorian. The only difference is the C#, the third in your A chord.
If by Em solo you mean Em pentatonic, then you just have:
E G A B D
Which fits in any of those keys.
Rokket
Trailing Behind Again
Wow, who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Thanks, man! I love it when I finally figure out what I am doing. Repetative as it is!mshilarious said:
X
XLR
______
And hey, for anybody who's theory-averse or has suffered "theory trauma" 
, a perfectly useable system for basic harmonic analysis is to classify the harmonies as simply "tonic", "dominant" and "other". You don't really have be able to identify a half diminished or secondary dominant chord to get a lot of value out of studying harmony. For people with normal musical aptitude I think it's a big deal just to be able to always hear where the tonic is while you're playing.
But I think to really know harmony and theory relating to guitar you've got to first know your basic scales and arpeggios and be able to sing them as you play them. Take an ear training/musicianship class at your local college and it's a lot of singing... that's because if you can sing the pitch relationships, you know they're in the head. And if the sound isn't in the head, terminology is just a bunch of words with no real meaning.
Tim
, a perfectly useable system for basic harmonic analysis is to classify the harmonies as simply "tonic", "dominant" and "other". You don't really have be able to identify a half diminished or secondary dominant chord to get a lot of value out of studying harmony. For people with normal musical aptitude I think it's a big deal just to be able to always hear where the tonic is while you're playing. But I think to really know harmony and theory relating to guitar you've got to first know your basic scales and arpeggios and be able to sing them as you play them. Take an ear training/musicianship class at your local college and it's a lot of singing... that's because if you can sing the pitch relationships, you know they're in the head. And if the sound isn't in the head, terminology is just a bunch of words with no real meaning.
Tim