What key am i in?

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Elmo89m

Elmo89m

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I've been playing guitar for a little while know and have obtained and pretty good knowledge of rhythmn guitar.I cant write and play rock and blues pretty good. But one thing i have never really gotten into until now is soloing. I no my scales (majors and pentatonics) but i dont know the key to play them in most of the time. When playing a basic I IV V blues its easy because you just play in the key of the I chord (im pretty sure anyway) but on my bands modern rock songs it is much harder. I can find it maybe 50% of the time by playing chords while the rhytmn is going on to find what sounds like the key it is in and then soloing scale in that key..but i want a definte theoretical way to be able to take the chords used in the song and know which key to play the scale in. how do i do this?
 
the way you're doing it already is pretty much how to do it (unless you have perfect pitch of course)
find the I (or the i) chord and the root of that is the key you're in. Just listen for where the I chord is...usually the very first chord in a song. Then play the scale or the chord over that just to be sure.

however, don't restrict yourself to playing in a key. when you get into modulations you can find yourself in trouble because the third of the I chord is now minor...for example. Many tunes will change to a bridge and you have to change with it. Key signatures were only added later in time so the composer didn't have to write out a bunch of flats and sharps each time they came up. For soloing purposes, just follow the chord progressions...but yes, knowing your I chord can help you get started in knowing where to begin and end a phrase.
 
Elmo89m said:
but i want a definte theoretical way to be able to take the chords used in the song and know which key to play the scale in. how do i do this?
Click to expand...

The key is the tonal center of the music; it is the note at which the music rests. As you have noted, in a major key, the tonic is identified by two other major chords: the IV and V. As an example, in the key of C:

I: C major, C E G
IV: F major, F A C
V: G major, G B D

So if you have a piece with three major chords, even if they don't come in that order, you can quickly identify the I.

The IV and V work to identify the tonic due to the tension created by half-step intervals. From IV to I, the F resolves to E. In the resolution from V to I, the B pulls up to the C. The V-I cadence is frequently made stronger by adding a seventh to the V:

V7: G dominant 7th, G B D F

In which case both semitone intervals resolve to a C major chord: B to C, and F to E.

Thus a dominant 7th chord is a pretty clear indication of key: it will be the V, and resolve to the I. Of course in blues where the dominant 7th is used for every chord, the intention is to blur tonality to enhance the possibilities of 'blue' notes.

Anyway . . .

When you throw minor chords into the mix, it gets a little trickier, and then there are minor keys to worry about too, and modulations . . .

Here's a pretty good site:

http://cnx.rice.edu/content/m11643/latest/

Work down to the "Love Me Tender" analysis, which uses a common technique - changing the ii from minor to major (II), which can strengthen a cadence, or modulate to a new key.
 
It also depends on whether or not all the chords in the song belong to the same key. Benny mentioned this a bit (with the reference to a bridge), but often times, even the chords in a verse will not fit into one key. One chord may be "borrowed" from the minor mode (for instance, a bVI chord ... like an F chord in a song that's in A major). Soloing based off the key was a much easier task in the days of 50s I-vi-IV-V rock 'n' roll, or blues as you mentioned.

If there is a non-diatonic chord (a chord that contains notes that aren't part of the key), you'll have to make special allowances for that. For instance, you'd have a hard time soloing over a lot of Nirvana songs using strictly the major scale, because he used borrowed or non-diatonic chords all over the place.

Just as a very basic example, let's use this:

Say you're in the key of C major. (C is the first chord, and the note C feels like "home") and you have a progression like: C - D - F - C.

Both C and F belong to the key of C major, but D does not. It contains one note (F#) that's outside the key. So over that chord, you'd need to compensate by replacing F with F#. There are a number of ways you could do this. You could play a D major pentatonic scale (D-E-F#-A-B), for example. However, you wouldn't probably want to play a straight D major scale (D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#) because it contains the note C#, and you're in the key of C. There are exceptions, and I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find an example of this, but I'm just speaking in general terms. Basically, you'd want to play a scale that contained the F# but didn't clash with other notes from the key of C. So, other than D major pentatonic, a perfect choice would be D Mixolydian (D-E-F#-G-A-B-C). You can see that the only difference between it and a C major scale is the presence of the F#.

So over the C chord, you could play C major, over the D chord, you could play D Mixolydian, and for the F chord you'd be back in C major.

This is a very basic example, and this is something that has to be faced on a song-by-song basis, because there are a limitless number of chord progressions. But it's a good general guideline to follow: for the non-diatonic chord, find the notes within that chord that don't belong to the key, then find a scale that contains those notes but doesn't contain other notes that clash with the home key.

As I said before, this is just a guideline. There really are no "rules" in music, and any time you try to make one, you're going to find thousands of exceptions. But it's a good place to start nonetheless.
 
mshilarious said:
The key is the tonal center of the music; it is the note at which the music rests. As you have noted, in a major key, the tonic is identified by two other major chords: the IV and V. As an example, in the key of C:

I: C major, C E G
IV: F major, F A C
V: G major, G B D

So if you have a piece with three major chords, even if they don't come in that order, you can quickly identify the I.

The IV and V work to identify the tonic due to the tension created by half-step intervals. From IV to I, the F resolves to E. In the resolution from V to I, the B pulls up to the C. The V-I cadence is frequently made stronger by adding a seventh to the V:

V7: G dominant 7th, G B D F

In which case both semitone intervals resolve to a C major chord: B to C, and F to E.

Thus a dominant 7th chord is a pretty clear indication of key: it will be the V, and resolve to the I. Of course in blues where the dominant 7th is used for every chord, the intention is to blur tonality to enhance the possibilities of 'blue' notes.

Anyway . . .

When you throw minor chords into the mix, it gets a little trickier, and then there are minor keys to worry about too, and modulations . . .

Here's a pretty good site:

http://cnx.rice.edu/content/m11643/latest/

Work down to the "Love Me Tender" analysis, which uses a common technique - changing the ii from minor to major (II), which can strengthen a cadence, or modulate to a new key.
Click to expand...

Hey! I was typing my response while you posted this. Yeah the "Love me Tender" has the major II chord I was talking about. Of course, it moves to the V instead of IV, but still ... it's the same basic concept.

By the way Elmo, there are two basic categories of non-diatonic chords: Secondary Dominants, and borrowed chords. (There are other types as well, but these are the most common.)

The major II chord is a secondary dominant. You'd call it V of V. This is because D is the V chord of G, which is the V of the original key, C. Confusing?

The other type, borrowed chords, involve "borrowing" a chord from the parallel (not relative) minor mode. The parallel minor mode is just the minor version of the key you're in. So if you're in C major, the parallel minor mode is C minor. So if you have a progression like: C - F - Ab - C, the Ab is said to be "borrowed" from the minor mode.
 
I have a decent understanding of what you guys are saying but how do i find the I chord. if it is a modern rock song that doesnt have a basic 1,4,5, setup how do i know which of the chords is the root, the songs we play very rarely start on the I chord. As i said i can find the key in any blues because of the simplicity of the progression but i have a hard time finding the key of the songs that i write.
 
To get a more general idea of where you should be playing, try this then: Look for the major chords in your song. (even if you're using power chords, they will still have an implied tonality in the context of the rest of the song--just make the "full" version of the chord, and you'll see what I'm talking about) In a very generalized sense, each key will only have 3 major chords and this will help you narrow things down a bit. Until you really start going after theory, this isn't a bad way to figure out where your fingers should be.

The idea of the "first chord in the song is the key you're playing in" needs to be put to rest. Yes, it can happen sometimes. But that is absolutely not how it works in reality. It's possible, for example, to play in the key of G without ever even hitting a G note.
 
Another thought--try finding the main minor chord in your song if your tune is based around a minor tonality. Then move up 3 frets and play a major scale. If you did it right, you'll be in key.

The suggestions I made are very general, please understand. However, you really can use them as a jumping off point for learning theory. Hope that helps a little.
 
yeah your first post helped me out a bit...Im not yet an accomplished guitarist but yes i do know that not all first chords are the root....You said each key has only 3 major chords yes, well what if the song had 4 or more major chords?
 
I don't mean to sound harsh, but if you cannot tell what key works for something that you wrote yourself, perhaps you should rethink your writing process. Again, I am being serious not condescending. Everyone here is giving excellent information, but i get the feeling you are looking for a magic formula that does not involve normal theory. Are you dealing with a progression that is extremely atonal to begin with? Because if so you are not going to pick out a textbook scale that is going to jive with it. Do you ever try outlining the chord changes in your solo instead of looking for one tonal center? It may be that simply using your ears is the best method. Here is an idea that is a little different and it might make you think more about melody instead of theory. Outline the chord changes with a simple single note melody, and from each of those notes branch out little by little over each chord in varying intervals looking for those magic notes that introduce the next chord just right. Before you know it you might be settling on the same cluster of notes and perhaps even falling into a more traditional scale that you never would have thought of using without this experimentation. I don't know, just my 2 cents.....
 
i know you meant well but...i am not looking for a magic formula i just want to know where in the great big book of guitar theory, finding the key is located. I can work things out with my ears but i would rather be able to say, hey this is my chord change blahblahblah...that second chord i play is my root and its an A. OK...lets play the minor pentatonic starting at the fifth fret...hey that sounds good.
 
Elmo89m said:
yeah your first post helped me out a bit...Im not yet an accomplished guitarist but yes i do know that not all first chords are the root....You said each key has only 3 major chords yes, well what if the song had 4 or more major chords?
Click to expand...

Then one of them is borrowed from another key :)

Give us an example of one of your chord progression & we'll analyze for you.
 
Elmo89m said:
i know you meant well but...i am not looking for a magic formula i just want to know where in the great big book of guitar theory, finding the key is located. I can work things out with my ears but i would rather be able to say, hey this is my chord change blahblahblah...that second chord i play is my root and its an A. OK...lets play the minor pentatonic starting at the fifth fret...hey that sounds good.
Click to expand...

tell you what. I think we'd be able to give you some more information if we had more to work with. Answer these questions if you could:

1) are you the songwriter?

2) are you the singer, or do you sing at all?

3) what are the chord progressions to 3 of your songs?

We won't necessarily be able to tell what key they're in just by that without hearing the vocal melody, but we could make some educated guesses.


The problem with the "three major chord" way of determining keys is that it's probably about as accurate as the "first or last chord" in the song method. There are many, many songs that have three major chords in them, but the key is not what you'd think it should be.

Take "Sweet Home Alabama" for instance. The chords are D, C, and G. By three chord method, this song should be in the key of G, but D is actually the tonal center. The chord progression is not V, IV, I in G. It's I, bVII, IV in D. And there are many more examples like this.

The song "Werewolves in London," contains the exact same chord progression. It IS, however, in the key of G. One of the factors that determines these songs key center is the vocal melody. "Alabama" consistently resolves to the D note (and that note feels like home), while "Werewolves" resolves to the G note (and that note feels like home).

The most accurate method of determining the key center is to use your ear. Hum notes until you find the note that sounds like the final resting place. Some people say, "find the last chord in a progression" and that's usually the I chord (or some say the first chord). But as others have pointed out, that's not nearly common enough to rely on it. However, the final note in the melody is often the tonic-- much more often than the chord being the tonic.

Think of the "Love Me Tender" melody (as mentioned in an earlier post).

"Oh my darling, I love you, and I always will."

"Will" is the tonic note of the song.

Keeping in the Elvis mode:

"Let's rock, everybody let's rock.
Everybody in the whole cell block was dancing to the jailhouse rock."

"rock" is the tonic.


Let's use a Beatles song:

(chorus) "I wanna hold your haaaaand
I wanna hold your hand."

"hand" is the tonic.


or "Come together ... right now ... over me"

"me" is the tonic.


Now these are all very clear cut examples, and there are still plenty of songs that aren't this clear. Take "Smells Like Teen Spirit" for example.

"Load up on guns and bring your friends, it's fun to lose and to pretend
She's overbored and self-assured, oh no I know a dirty word."

This song is in the key of F minor. However, Kurt's beautiful melody doesn't make that obvious. The phrase ends each time on the note G. My point is, though, that this note (G) definitely does NOT sound like "home." That's part of the appeal of the melody---it's unresolved or "hanging" sound. After this part, he goes into the "hello, hello, hello, hello, how low" bit which alternates between the Ab and G notes. Only on the word "low" does the melody reach the tonic. Sing the "hello" bit over and over. You can tell that it's not resolved. But when the "how low" comes, the phrase feels resolved or finished. Does this make sense?

Again, answer the above questions if you could, so we can get a better understanding of your situation.
 
Here's another idea. Take a look at the chord progression in terms of the root of each chord. Look at the intervals between those root notes (major/minor second, major/minor third, perfect fourth, etc....) and see if the chord progression suggests a certain diatonic scale. That would be a way of determining what key center the progression implies. In the case of a completely atonal chord progression (or progression of root notes) you'll have to be alot more touchy feely about what key you could solo in, if that makes any sense.
 
Oops...

Deleted this post... it was supposed to go to a different thread.

Tim
 
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okay well i had an epiphany last night and now i completly understand how to find the key of songs with chords all in the same key. but back to the borrowed chords thing.here is one of my bands simpler songs..its in dropped D. 1st chord is F# 2nd chord is A, third chord is E, last chord is D
 
Elmo89m said:
okay well i had an epiphany last night and now i completly understand how to find the key of songs with chords all in the same key. but back to the borrowed chords thing.here is one of my bands simpler songs..its in dropped D. 1st chord is F# 2nd chord is A, third chord is E, last chord is D
Click to expand...


are all of these chords actually played as major chords, or are they power chords? (When there's no suffix on a chord, it's implied that it's major).
 
Elmo89m said:
sorry yeah they are just barred power chords
Click to expand...

Leaning pretty strongly towards A or F#m, which are relative major/minor of each other. A, D, E, are I, IV, V in A, F#m is vi.
 
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