What is the highest db you want from your loudest instrument in a mix

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Chris Jahn

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I use logic, so when you slide the faders, it tells you (-/+) what level of db your using. Now, if i follow the suggestion of starting a mix with vocals then building with around it, that would (by default) make the vocals the loudest in my mix correct?

So my question is, what is the highest level of db in a decent mix, ie what is the rest of the mix falling under.

Ive heard that a good mix (digital at least) all falls under -12 db, this seems crazy but mabye its not.

Is it ever necassary to go above 0 db in a mix, and whats the definition (in db's) of a loud mix.

Lastly, when sending out for mastering, what of all of this is a good mastering engineer looking for.
 
Analog and digital db scales are waaaaaay different, so you gotta think of them differently. All of my answers refer to digital, and are usually referred to as dbfs (full scale). The absolute top of the scale is 0db. There is nothing above 0db. So, there's one answer for you.

<<<"Is it ever necassary to go above 0 db in a mix...">>>

In digital, where 0db is the absolute top, it is not possible to go above 0db. I think that this is where the confusion comes from. Everybody has heard that you are supposed to get your recordings near 0db. NOT SO in digital. Maybe true in analog... I won't comment on that, but not true in digital when 0db is the top of the scale.

<<<"Ive heard that a good mix (digital at least) all falls under -12 db">>>

This is what I shoot for, personally. -12db to -15db on each individual track. Again, in digital, 0db is the absolute top. If anything gets to 0db, it is distortion. I don't want *anything* to get to 0db. EVER. If I try to get a track to say -6db average, there are still going to be spikes that get very close to 0db. And, when I mix tracks together, sounds played together tend to re-enforce each other, and the volume of the whole mix becomes more than the volume of the individual parts. More stuff gets near 0db. So, I record single tracks at -12db so that the spikes in the mixes stay below -6db, so that I never get anything near 0db. I hope that made sense. I can always bring up the final mix later.

Vocals loudest in the mix? Well, certainly the main vocal should stand out. But, that doesn’t always equate to “vocals are loudest”. If I’m putting vocals and instruments in the same space in the stereo field, then I suppose yes, the vocals would technically be louder than the other things in that space. But, not a huge difference. Just enough so that the vocal is up front, and the other stuff is behind the vocal.

Starting a mix with vocals? Personal preference, I think. I usually mix instruments first, myself. YMMV
 
I think i got it

But i think that the info you gave me is an after effect, correct me if im wrong, but the center of a fader is 0 db, correct? so when litterally sliding the fader up and down (in my case a virtual fader) i dont want to bring it past the center? or am i watching the peak meter to see were it is going, im a little confused about which im using to keep things under 0, i assume its a little of both, but does one equal the other?

Basically, i know to not let digital go into the "red" because digital distortion is nasty, but in terms of the fader moves, does red equal 0 db on the fader, or is that only relative to your input volume.

Im not sure if your familier with logic and how the mixing board is layed out, but if your are, mabye you can explain more based on that specifically.

thanks for your help.
 
Your faders are 0 dBVU. As compared to 0dBFS that would be around -18 dBFS. But aiming at some arbitrary dB level is flawed way of thinking. Where ever the peaks are hitting has nothing to do with perceived LOUDNESS. These are two very different things.
 
Chris Jahn said:
correct me if im wrong, but the center of a fader is 0 db, correct? so when litterally sliding the fader up and down (in my case a virtual fader) i dont want to bring it past the center? or am i watching the peak meter to see were it is going, im a little confused about which im using to keep things under 0, i assume its a little of both, but does one equal the other?
Click to expand...

Yes, 0 on the fader means there is no gain. Moving the fader past 0, say to +3 will give +3db of gain. That does not mean it is past 0db. If it goes past 0db then the peak meter will go into the red and it will clip. That is what you don't want.

So move the fader to whatever sounds good in the mix, just make sure you don't clip.

The gain on the fader is relative to the track's volume, not 0dbFS.
 
Yeah, the channel strips go over 0 , however if you push them all up and the master buss is clipping, then your heading for trouble, since the beginings of digital , three samples in a row with greater than 0 dbfs equal an over. lots of these and a CD plant will reject it and send it back at ya.


There are many , many factors to consider in " loud" some reading in the area of phsycoacoustic research would be in order.

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is this the same issue as setting *recording levels* or different?

My cubase LE reads out peak levels on the mixer while I'm recording, and I set for -6 on the peaks.
 
dont look at the numbers. this is audio- USE YOUR EARS!

as long as it's not in the red, you are fine. track in the green (some go to yellow towards the top right?- just aim for where green starts to turn to yellow)

the hell with numbers dude. you can hear if it's too hot or too low, adjust based on that.

when you slap the limiter/whatever/loudness maximizer in the end to bring up the volume, same thing, get it up there but just don't clip like crazy.
 
when you guys say -12db, are you talking about -12db on a peak meter? or what meter are you measuring by?
 
Chris Jahn said:
I use logic, so when you slide the faders, it tells you (-/+) what level of db your using. Now, if i follow the suggestion of starting a mix with vocals then building with around it, that would (by default) make the vocals the loudest in my mix correct?
Click to expand...
Only if you make the other tracks quieter. The order in which you bring in tracks is irrelevant to their relative loudness. But OK, I understand the method you're trying to describe.
Chris Jahn said:
So my question is, what is the highest level of db in a decent mix, ie what is the rest of the mix falling under.
Click to expand...
It doesn't work that way. Perceived loudness is not solely related to the peak levels you see on the meter; other factors such as the density of the track (affecting the average level) and its frequency response have as much or more of a bearing on the perceived loudness of a track as the meter readings. Therefore you just need to go by your ears and use the meters solely to make sure your not pushing anything into digital clipping.
Chris Jahn said:
Ive heard that a good mix (digital at least) all falls under -12 db, this seems crazy but mabye its not.

Is it ever necassary to go above 0 db in a mix, and whats the definition (in db's) of a loud mix..
Click to expand...
First thing I'd recommend, Chris, is that you need to brush up on the meaning of the various scales of dB readings. The value "-12dB" in and of itself means nothing, just as the value "20°" means nothing (is it degrees Farenheit, Centegrade, or Kelvin?) Look up the meanings of (and difference between) VU, dBFS, and dBRMS for starters. And then use them instead of saying just "dB" when asking your questions so that we actually know what you're talking about.

Even then don't worry about the numbers too much, mixing is not about the numbers. It is true that most quality mixdowns will come out below -12dBRMS before premastering (though the peaks can go much higher in dBFS than that). So what? Let the mix come out how it comes out. The numbers are incidental. The key is not to feel that you have to push the numbers any higher than that.
Chris Jahn said:
Lastly, when sending out for mastering, what of all of this is a good mastering engineer looking for.
Click to expand...
Practically none of it, to be honest. They simply want the best sounding mix you can make, and one that has not already been overly "home mastered" before they get their paws on it.

G.
 
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You can push the virtual fader above "0", but that doesn't mean the level is above zero, or even at zero. You need to watch the channel meters to know that. A safe rule of thumb is that the peaks of any given channel shouldn't go above -6.

As far as starting with the vocals, different people do mixes differently. I think you are trying to make rules where there aren't necessarily any. Some engineers start with bass and drums, for example. Other engineers will basically keep everything up most of the time, and only solo tracks when they need to give it just a little extra eq or compression attention.

There's an excellent book called "The Mixing Engineer's Handbook", written by Bobby Owsinski. This is something you should buy and study closely. There are many great mixing tips in it, plus numerous interviews with outstanding mix engineers. You'll learn a lot from this book.
 
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