What file format is best for Live Performances? Please read!

If it's just vocals and a guitar over that pre-recorded track, I feel like you'll end up with a pretty boring show. The music will be very sterile and canned, and I think the audience will feel that too. They'll see you up there with a guitar and hear these soothing string sections, and they'll know that it's pre-recorded and won't get into it.
Yes to both ...... that's why on my seq's, I mostly only have drums and bass ....... sometimes some keyboard parts if absolutely necessary.
With using a keyboard for seq's, I get flexibility ....... don't have to play the songs the same every time and can even change the mix on the fly if I wish.
Also .... with minimalist seq's, the seq's don't get the focus. Lots of guys will allow the seq's to get the focus ...... they work hard to make their seq's sound full and complete and like studio recordings. Their seq's end up getting a lot of the attention and this is the exact wrong approach.
I use seq's only as a way to allow me to do what I do.
Since I'm an improvisational player and my strength is in soloing, I want the seq to be the least that it can be ...... simply enough rhythm and percussion to let me play and sing ...... I avoid strings and horn patches like the plague 'cause they are always cheesy for this purpose.

Another reason to use a keyboard for my seq's is so the audience NEVER sees me touch anything other than a musical instrument.
As soon as they see a laptop or MP3 player they categorize you as karaoke.
I've been doing the seq thing for about 15 years and the hardest thing is to get people to not see you as karaoke.
I've accomplished that by avoiding anything that could be interpreted that way.
 
A big part of the rotten place the music industry is in now is because of the "don't give a fuck" attitude so prevalent today.

It does matter if it sounds great or just good. The audience isn't a bunch of drunks that don't notice. It matters!

I would encourage everyone to go the other way - make everything the very best it can be, aim to be the Best in the World at whatever the fuck it is you're doing.

Why not? You only go this way once. :)

I totally agree and I wasn't suggesting the audience would be too drunk to notice! I believe that if you did the "Pepsi Challange" and played an aiff and an mp3 one after the other in even the quietest venue, even a musician with a good ear wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

I think most MP3s are less compressed (in the file size sense) these days and while there is an audible difference on close inspection I think you'd be pretty sharp to spot it in a venue.
 
... Do you really think that *anyone*, drunk or sober, tin eared or audiophile, could reliably and in reality tell with any better than 50-50 chance success which one he used in his live performance?

Do you think that the file format issue even begins to address the problems he has which generated this thread to begin with? ...

No, the file format won't matter if the arrangement etc sucks, but when he gets that fixed and does record it he needs to know that there's a dramatic difference between formats, and regular people can notice it.

I totally agree and I wasn't suggesting the audience would be too drunk to notice! I believe that if you did the "Pepsi Challange" and played an aiff and an mp3 one after the other in even the quietest venue, even a musician with a good ear wouldn't be able to tell the difference...

I have proven to myself that that is not true.

For me, it's unconceivable that people can't hear the difference between a B and a Bb. B sounds like a buzzer and Bb sounds warm, regardless of eq, octave or instrument. We weren't brought up very well when it comes to hearing. I think everyone can hear these differences, it's just about being aware.

But what I've found is that even if people say they can't hear the difference between certain things, I've seen that they can feel it. It makes them tap their feet and reaches their inner soul and they don't know why but they're smiling and I know it's the harmonics tickling their souls. MP3's can't compete. It doesn't wear you out when the tone quality is high, even though you might say you can't hear it. You can feel it and music is about that, not sound.

I've always thought that many musicians underestimate regular people, their audience. These are people taking back their $500 stereos to Sears for a $1000 one, and it's not bullshit, they can hear the difference. They're not stupid! :)
 
WARNING: Major rant ahead. Noting personal meant towards anyone....

No, the file format won't matter if the arrangement etc sucks, but when he gets that fixed and does record it he needs to know that there's a dramatic difference between formats, and regular people can notice it.
IME, the only thing dramatic here is that statement. I guarantee you that I could play you a single file under those conditions and you couldn't tell me it's format reliably more than 50% of the time. In fact, I'll take it even a step further; I'd bet you I could trick you into choosing MP3 as your answer more than 50% of the time, through simple psychological manipulation. I'm not talking A/B comparison, I'm talking real life listening to just one file.
I've always thought that many musicians underestimate regular people, their audience. These are people taking back their $500 stereos to Sears for a $1000 one, and it's not bullshit, they can hear the difference. They're not stupid! :)
And a whole lot of audiophiles overestimate themselves. Look, Dinty, you're not stupid either. You know damn well that trying to compare two stereo systems, one with with twice the quality of loudspeaker as the other, to comparing a WAV to a 320k MP3 is an entirely mismatched comparison. It's like comparing the difference between red and blue to the difference between cream and eggshell.

While I'm not exactly proud of my history in sales (a long time ago in a suburb far, far away), I spent some 6 years or so selling audio gear, pro and consumer grade, and I can guarantee you that when the spit hits the fan - i.e. in the actual listening - that the most self-proclaimed "best ears in the world", including those with perfect pitch (I have had few friends and acquaintances with proven perfect pitch, and more than a few customers who claimed the same talent) and those techie audiophiles and gearheads, almost never agree with any regularity on just what they claim to hear when you actually separate them from the herd and have them individually listen to identical material through identical gear under identical circumstances.

One person's warm is another person's muddy, the third guy's flat is the fourth guy's hyped, this guy's digital CD is that guy's open-reel analog tape, and that guy's "obvious" 3-way crossover was this guy's equally "obvious" 2-way bookshelf, etc. And the WAV/MP3 thing is no different. By making proclamations about what they were hearing that were completely wrong, I have seen practically as many self-proclaimed "golden ears" unknowingly make complete asses of themselves in the listening rooms -and studio control rooms and mastering suites, BTW - as I have drunks in nightclubs do the same.

It's the same bullshit as most wine tasting reviews. I was researching some special reserve port as a present for a friend of mine a couple of months ago. I found one that got equally high reviews form practically everyone across the board. And yeah, it did turn out to be a very good bottle of wine. But I read something like 8 different reviews of it, all by typically respected reviewers, and not a single one of those reviews described this exact same wine the same way. They all liked it, but their reasons and descriptions were all almost entirely different.

It's also like your NS-10s. I know people with the same hearing capabilities as yours that couldn't stand to listen to them for more than 10 minutes at a time. Which one of you is "right"? That answer is you are both right for yourselves, and both wrong in trying to make any blanket judgment about those boxes outside of your own heads.

And whether the OP uses a cream or eggshell backdrop for his stage act isn't going to make a smidgen of difference to anybody, including the sharp-eyed interior decorator/stage manager sitting in the audience, who is the only one in the room could possibly (but not certainly) tell the difference between the two even under the best of light, let alone the light of a club stage.

G.
 
Alright, stash, I gave the MP3 a listen and a little bit of the WMA (only part of it downloaded for me, but enough to compare the two.)

While in both formats the track sound a bit midrangey, that's not my main question with it:

I'm going to sound like a broken record here because I just got through talking about this in another thread, but my main concern is that I can't hear any definitive space for your live vocals. Granted, I have not heard or seen the vocal arrangement, so I can't say for sure, but the density/volume of the whole arrangement sounds pretty constant...until about 1:03, that is, when it all gets louder.

I had expected to hear something along the lines of an few bars of intro, then either a bit of a decline in volume or lightening up of the arrangement to make room for vocal verses, with maybe some swells here or there for fills/transitions/etc. But instead it's all fairly constant in energy and volume (except for that increase halfway through).

If my speculation is correct, that might very well be what the FOH guy was saying about it all sounding too compressed; there's no real dynamics in the instrumentals over time to make room for the vocals, forcing you and your g/f not only to sing over the top of everything - especially difficult if they have the playback volume for the tracks set too loud - but also then leaving some "holes" in the volume of the backing track when your vocals are at rest.

If this is indeed an issue, the file format itself has nothing to do with it, rather it's a matter of mixing of the instrument tracks themselves.

G.

RE-MIX

I took everyone's advice and spent a couple more days mixing this! I want to post my newest mix of it. I'm confident that the piece is mixed much better this time. I rolled off a lot of the low ends and made separate reverbs for every instrument so it isn't quite as muddy.

EDIT: crappy mix of song removed. please go to page 2.
 
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Sounds like your mixing in a corner probably with the adjacent wall probably to your left. I can't imagine why you would want all that reverb in there either but since that's the sound you are looking for wait until your performance and put the reverb on the FOH to sound less like karaoke. I'd say put back some of the low end on the timpani's too. Leave it for the FOH to drop if needed.

Look at it this way, if the low end isn't there he can't add it and if the reverbs is there he's stuck with it.
 
I would actually totally get rid of any reverb at all on the backing tracks. Why would you want it?
Think of it like this ........ if you had a real 4 or 5 piece band there instead of backing tracks, would you have 'verb on everything before it even went to the PA? Would you have verb on the bass? or drums?
No.

So you want your backing tracks to be as close as possible to what you'd have if you had the real band instead of tracks and you wouldn't drench everything in a live band in reverb.
One of the biggest mistakes, IMO, is to try and make backing tracks sound like they were mixed for a CD.
It works great on a CD but sounds cheesy for live work and totally forces the audience to constantly have to ignore that it's backing tracks and not live.
You want to try and make that easy to ignore.
 
Glen,
Next you'll be telling us there's no difference between digital and analog
I don't think anyone can say that there's no difference, they are different. But I don't think anyone can definitively claim that one is "better" than the other. Might as well say that red is than blue or reggae is better than bluegrass.

Those that grew up on analog tend to prefer analog. Those that grew up on digital tend to prefer digital. It's no different than those who grew up on rock prefer rock and those that grew up on R&B prefer R&B.

I like it all. I like the non-digital aspects of analog, and I like the non-analog aspects of digital, just as I like rock, R&B, reggae and bluegrass, all for their own positive attributes. But I'm not so colloquial as to say that there's a hierarchy of superiority in any of it.


And as far as the reverb on the backing tracks, what's the point? You're playing them live in a club on a PA, man. There's plenty reverb built right in to the environment.

G.
 
So you want your backing tracks to be as close as possible to what you'd have if you had the real band instead of tracks and you wouldn't drench everything in a live band in reverb.
One of the biggest mistakes, IMO, is to try and make backing tracks sound like they were mixed for a CD.
It works great on a CD but sounds cheesy for live work and totally forces the audience to constantly have to ignore that it's backing tracks and not live.
You want to try and make that easy to ignore.

This ^

Alternatively, embrace the cheesiness. I just noticed that this mp3 was really short. If you use that as your intro by itself, and then have the rest of the band kick in playing live instruments when that track ends, it'd be fricken' awesome!

If your cheesy synths and pads are being used as just that, it can work. But attempting to emulate a real orchestra with that kind of stuff just doesn't work, in my opinion.
 
One of the most interesting concepts i've read in this thread is that backing tracks should be mixed differently than CD mixes.

It's so simple, but nobody really ever wrote a book called "The Difference Between Mixing Studio Recordings and Live Backing Tracks". So after reading that comment I re-re-mixed the song and got rid of all or most of the reverb on the track.

Also, one of the biggest problems I had with the earlier mixes was the first orchestral sound (that comes in after the 4 count). It was a preset sound (can't remember the name right now) on Miroslav and when I listened to it closely I notice a huge amount of hiss and unwanted noise between 10khz-20khz and an annoying unintentional phase that made the whole mix sound washy and terrible.

That one sound was bringing my whole piece down and I didn't even know it. So I deleted that whole track and decided I would simplify the backing track a little and just keep the strings, bass, timpani and cymbals and play a piano live over this new backing track.

http://www.thelexingtons.net/isn't it nice to be loved (click track).wma This is in non-compressed .wma format (I intend to use a Microsoft Zune for playback).

This is a click track!!! Its supposed to have an annoying drum beat in the left channel that is really loud and fake violin to stay on key when singing. The audience will never hear the left channel. If you want to hear what an audience would hear, just isolate the right channel.

Thanks again for the feedback from everyone. I learned a lot about this new style of mixing.
 
Sounds like it will work much better. The bottom cleaned up nice and that timpani is more defined. Let us know if it still falls apart or your engineer still complains.
 
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