What does your guitar REALLY sound like? An experiment.

[thebigcheese]

Being unemployed has afforded me entirely too much free time, none of which I seem to want to spend doing anything particularly productive, so instead I thought I would try a little experiment. Whenever you try to compare what guitars sound like, you are always running them through an amp or whatever, listening to the guitar at its best. But what does the guitar really sound like? So I thought I'd plug it straight into my interface and see what the guitar's unaltered signal sounds like. If some more of you will do the same, maybe we can put together a little database of what different guitars actually sound like so people will have a better idea what the differences are. I have a hunch that a lot of guitars, mine included, are not going to sound that phenomenal, but as long as we're all playing fair and keeping the signal untouched, we should be able to compare to sound clips and get a general idea for how one guitar sounds compared to another. So here's some clips I did to start us off. They are done with an original Gibson "The Paul" (1979, I think) plugged straight into a MOTU Traveler. It's going through one of the four preamps, so it's not totally uncolored, but I think the preamps are fairly transparent. Anyway...

Bridge sample
Both pickups sample
Neck sample

Please contribute your own samples so we can compare! The only rules are that you have to use the most transparent preamp you have as we want the signal to be as raw as possible and you're not allowed to use any FX or alter the sound in any way in your DAW. Try to mix it up with single notes and chords and play the same thing for each of your clips (doesn't have to be what I played, just the same amongst your clips).

 

[muttley600]

This would not produce any data of any value.

You would have to plug all these guitars into the same physical interface and with the same settings. Even then that is not how we use our guitars and tone in any event is a subjective value judgement.

I applaud your motive but would suggest you spend you time reading more about the subject and looking for another job.

 

[thebigcheese]

You are completely missing the point. Obviously that's not how we would use the guitar. The whole point is to get at that subjective thing by listening to two guitars and saying, hey, that one sounds brighter than this one, or darker than that one, etc. This is not a scientific experiment with concrete data. It is a reference tool so that we can compare tones and see how each of us thinks they sound compared to others. I think comparing the actual tones of guitars is a much better way to compare two guitars than running them through two different amps, two different microphones, and then two different interfaces. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that would be a valuable shopping aid.

At least on my interface, there aren't any settings that would make the slightest bit of difference to the tone. So if we are all agreed to keep the interface's impact to a minimum, I think it would produce some worthwhile data.

I would appreciate you actually thinking about the idea for more than two seconds before you condescend me. I have certainly given this a good deal of thought before posting it, so please don't treat me like an uneducated fool. The objective is not to compare the tones you would actually be using, but just to get a general feel for how guitars compare to one another. I think that if you had thought about my idea, you would see how that could be useful.

 

[mshilarious]

The trouble is you can't assume the input impedance of the interface doesn't interact (or not interact) with the output impedance of the guitar in its various configurations. Different gear and setups will result in different loading of the pickups, which produces significant differences in tone.

That's not to say you exercise would have no value, but I think it would tend to confirm what people already know about the basic styles of guitars and electronics.

 

[muttley600]

You are completely missing the point. Obviously that's not how we would use the guitar. The whole point is to get at that subjective thing by listening to two guitars and saying, hey, that one sounds brighter than this one, or darker than that one, etc. This is not a scientific experiment with concrete data. It is a reference tool so that we can compare tones and see how each of us thinks they sound compared to others. I think comparing the actual tones of guitars is a much better way to compare two guitars than running them through two different amps, two different microphones, and then two different interfaces. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that would be a valuable shopping aid.

At least on my interface, there aren't any settings that would make the slightest bit of difference to the tone. So if we are all agreed to keep the interface's impact to a minimum, I think it would produce some worthwhile data.

I would appreciate you actually thinking about the idea for more than two seconds before you condescend me. I have certainly given this a good deal of thought before posting it, so please don't treat me like an uneducated fool. The objective is not to compare the tones you would actually be using, but just to get a general feel for how guitars compare to one another. I think that if you had thought about my idea, you would see how that could be useful.

Trust me, I am not missing the point and I am not being condescending.

I have done years of musical acoustic research and I know exactly what is and isn't possible or relevant when making side by side comparisons and attempting to quantify these things.

If you were talking about using FFT equipment and making some very specific constraints in which each instrument was going to be analysed then I would be a little more engaged.

Consider, string type, gauge, setup. Consider, amplitude of the attack, where and with what the string is being plucked and on each string. At what angle the string is being picked and at what speed the pick moves across the string. It is all these things and much more that make our instrument so varied and exciting. It is also what makes it almost impossible to quantify. I haven't even covered all the variables of the string let alone the body and analytical equipment needed to get valid data from a project like that.

Believe me you would not be the first to try but you would 100% be the next to fail.

The best way to compare guitars is by using the two pieces of equipment located either side of you head and connected to the organ found centrally between them.

So in summary, been there done that in a way that is as controlled as is possible. You will not get any data that is of use for what you suggest. I'm sorry but that's just how it is and I'm sorry to be the one to knock the wind out of your sails.

 

[muttley600]

You are completely missing the point. Obviously that's not how we would use the guitar. The whole point is to get at that subjective thing by listening to two guitars and saying, hey, that one sounds brighter than this one, or darker than that one, etc. This is not a scientific experiment with concrete data. It is a reference tool so that we can compare tones and see how each of us thinks they sound compared to others. I think comparing the actual tones of guitars is a much better way to compare two guitars than running them through two different amps, two different microphones, and then two different interfaces. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that would be a valuable shopping aid.

At least on my interface, there aren't any settings that would make the slightest bit of difference to the tone. So if we are all agreed to keep the interface's impact to a minimum, I think it would produce some worthwhile data.

I would appreciate you actually thinking about the idea for more than two seconds before you condescend me. I have certainly given this a good deal of thought before posting it, so please don't treat me like an uneducated fool. The objective is not to compare the tones you would actually be using, but just to get a general feel for how guitars compare to one another. I think that if you had thought about my idea, you would see how that could be useful.

Just to finish and please don't take this the wrong way because I would encourage you to pursue your interest by focusing in a slightly different manner, but. You have just had two of the most experienced members of this board on the subject of acoustics and analytical electronics council you against getting too carried away with this.

I would suggest you look more at how and what is important in a vibrating string and how it plays out on a guitar or other instrument. msh can advise where to start looking at pickups and output, thats his bag more than mine.

 

[mshilarious]

Well if you're talking strictly pickups you can get lots of relevant data, because you can eliminate variables of performance (type of wood, string, attack, etc.) by taking independent outputs from each pickup. That is only a subset of the data you are trying to generate, and it's pretty well understood at this point.

 

[muttley600]

Well if you're talking strictly pickups you can get lots of relevant data, because you can eliminate variables of performance (type of wood, string, attack, etc.) by taking independent outputs from each pickup. That is only a subset of the data you are trying to generate, and it's pretty well understood at this point.

That maybe true but it is the variables that you are attempting to quantify here not pickup output we can do that with a multimetre. That is precisely the dilemma.

 

[mshilarious]

That maybe true but it is the variables that you are attempting to quantify here not pickup output we can do that with a multimetre. That is precisely the dilemma.

No, you can measure frequency response that way just like anything else. But everybody already knows what different pickup positions sound like in that respect.

A simple exercise would be to reverse neck and bridge pickups, as the bridge pickup is normally hotter, and compare the before & after from both positions.

Again, that's just the difference in pickup position and windings, only two of many variables, but the easiest to control.

 

[muttley600]

No, you can measure frequency response that way just like anything else. But everybody already knows what different pickup positions sound like in that respect.

A simple exercise would be to reverse neck and bridge pickups, as the bridge pickup is normally hotter, and compare the before & after from both positions.

Again, that's just the difference in pickup position and windings, only two of many variables, but the easiest to control.

No because by doing that you are immediately thrown into the variables I described.

It goes like this and you know this, I state it only for the sake of the op and your sophistry.

The strings timbre includes a fundamental and a degree of higher partials for each frequency in the harmonic series. It is different for each note. That is our starting point. Those higher partials are dependant on the manner in which the string is excited and and the manner in which the materials connected to it reflect and absorb energy. A magnetic pickup will also colour the sound to a degree simply because ot the interaction of the magnet.

The model does not break down into neat parts such as string, body, pickup etc. it is the sum total of it's parts and is hugely different for even small changes in any of the criteria mentioned.

The abstract that the op stated is that we can make a usable database of comparable guitar tones based on plugging them into a raw interface and collecting the results. We cannot.

I don't intend to enter a long a drawn out debate with you on this because you know better and and you also know that what I have stated is correct.

 

[MMensch]

Try to mix it up with single notes and chords and play the same thing for each of your clips (doesn't have to be what I played, just the same amongst your clips).

What did you play - it's a nice tune, but I don't recognise it.

 

[mshilarious]

The strings timbre includes a fundamental and a degree of higher partials for each frequency in the harmonic series. It is different for each note. That is our starting point. Those higher partials are dependant on the manner in which the string is excited and and the manner in which the materials connected to it reflect and absorb energy.

Of course I agree, that's why you'd have to have the same exact performance in all respects except for one or two variables, more than that is too difficult to successfully analyze.

Stated another way, you could put two identical pickups in different spots at the same height with respect to the strings and whack a single chord. You can analyze the difference in the resulting signal, and it will tell you something about response with respect to pickup position.

 

[muttley600]

Of course I agree, that's why you'd have to have the same exact performance in all respects except for one or two variables, more than that is too difficult to successfully analyze.

Stated another way, you could put two identical pickups in different spots at the same height with respect to the strings and whack a single chord. You can analyze the difference in the resulting signal, and it will tell you something about response with respect to pickup position.

Yes and that's about as much as you can get from that.

For the benefit of the OP. You'd also get a different output if you hit the strings harder, softer, at a different place, a different angle, with different types of pick or with your fingers/nails. You'd also have to make stipulation as to the type of note, fretted, open string, which string, which fret. You'd have to make a stipulation on what tone and volume controls are included in the path and what gain settings are used on the interface. That would get you started but still leave a whole lot that would be critical to real comparison.

You do see where this is going don't you..

 

[kcearl]

my guitars all sound like badly dressed skinny guys with raspy voices

 

[muttley600]

my guitars all sound like badly dressed skinny guys with raspy voices

The Smiths.

 

[kcearl]

The Smiths.

i never said they sounded like wallowing in misery bacon dodgers dancing 5 to 5 with one foot on the barstool now did i?


btw Johnny Marr...excellent guitarist, dunno if you've listened to the yank band Modest Mouse, but he was the guitarist on their last album (We Were Dead Before the Ship Even Sank) and did some of the songwriting on it too...


ooo that felt all serious...yuk

 

[Christoph]

I think I get what you're looking for, I just recorded my three pickups in Wavelab with no effects or anything, just straight tone.

First: Bridge pickup, it's a Fat Tone Vintage Humbucker
http://yourlisten.com/channel/content/36268/Bridge_Pickup

Second: My middle pickup, it's a JB JR. Humbucker that fits in a single coil slot on my guitar.
http://yourlisten.com/channel/content/36269/Mid_Pickup

Third: It's the pickup that came with the guitar, a single coil Custom Alnico
http://yourlisten.com/channel/content/36270/Neck_Pickup


These are in my little Laguna 422HBT, and I love this guitar. I'm sure most professionals would laugh at me for it but it's perfect for me.
http://www.playlaguna.com/models/index.cfm?model=le422hbt

 

[thebigcheese]

I still say that you guys are looking at this entirely too scientifically, but I suppose the differences among interfaces could negate some of the slight differences between guitars. I realize that you guys probably know more than I do, but please don't take the high road and treat me like I don't know anything. My degree includes a minor in audio technology, so I should hope I understand at least the basic differences. Maybe it wasn't the best thought-out plan, but I had figured that if everyone had a reasonably transparent preamp, we would be able to get some somewhat useful results. If nothing else, it would be interesting for people to hear what their guitar's raw output sounds like versus what it sounds like through an amp. Perhaps people could use that information to help them decide what characteristics to look for in an amp. I, for instance, would want an amp that could reduce some of the muddiness in the low end and could enhance the brightness. Is that a somewhat useful experiment?

@MMensch: The first part is Zombie Eaters by Faith No More, the second part was My Hero by Foo Fighters (though I tend to combine that version with the acoustic Paramore version. I like sus chords).

 

[thebigcheese]

I think I get what you're looking for, I just recorded my three pickups in Wavelab with no effects or anything, just straight tone.

Thanks! Now that you've listened to it that way, what do you think?

 

[Christoph]

Thanks! Now that you've listened to it that way, what do you think?

Quite different than going through my little "pre-amp", I like the tone on my JB JR just by itself but the others I think I need some EQ adjustments to make them sound right to me.

Overall, I still like the the tones from each, the neck not so much, but the bridge sounds pretty nice.