What do you use for a click track?

[miroslav]

This would be a very ineffective way to determine a click tempo. First, it'd be inaccurate. Even a person with excellent rhythmic sense would usually vary the tempo slightly during a minute's time, making a less accurate result than a single measure's tapping. Second, no one in their right mind would spend a whole minute counting the number of beats unless they were conducting a scientific test, especially a creative person, no offense.

The OP's preference for tapping a few beats to determine click tempo is perfectly reasonable.

HUH???
Maybe you're just doing it wrong.
And WOW…”spend a whole minute”…yeah, that’s a lot of effort.

Here’s the scenario:
You write a new song, just you and your guitar. You are automatically going to set your tempo for the song in your head, as it feels right to you.
Now...you want to record that song and wish to use a click track.
So...how many BMP is your song?

Do you just guess...and thenspend a few minutes or more trying out one or two clicks up/down until it feels right...?
Well...that will get you there eventually, but IMHO...not necessarily fast or any more accurate...you're just guesstimating until you hit the mark.
The other approach, which is the way I've been doing it for years as I almost always use click tracks...is to play the song, and get the tempo going that I like...and then just look at a clock and count for one minute.
That IS the correct BMP...and any time afterwards that I've tested one or two up/down, I always came back to the BMP I initially counted off.
It’s as accurate for finding the BMP that works for my song as anything else…maybe even more so because it takes into account the feel while playing for awhile rather than just tapping for a couple of measures.
It takes less time to do that than it does to guess at the BMP and then fiddle with it until you find what you like.

Oh...and if you do just tap for a couple of measures, chances are you will be off because of the quick start/stop for that short duration...whereas if you do it for a minute , and even do it twice (like I always do) there is a natural averaging that occurs and your counted BMP will most likely be the right one.
Every time I try to tap-set a DDL box with just 5-6 taps…it ALWAYS drifts after a minute. But when I tap it out for a longer period, and get my taping into a longer, steadier groove…then the DDL stays on the money throughout the song.

YMMV…there’s always more than one way to get where you want to go.

 

[XLR]

So, best answer is, there is no 'best' answer... Use what works

Yep. What works best for one person, or in one situation, won't for another. Lame for anyone to get their panties in a bunch about what works for someone else.

 

[miroslav]

Very true...but it's nice to hear how others are doing it...as that can often open new paths of enlightenment.

Ooooooooooooooohhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

 

[XLR]

Very true...but it's nice to hear how others are doing it...as that can often open new paths of enlightenment.

Ooooooooooooooohhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

Maybe it's just me, but you come off as kind of arrogant.

 

[undrgrnd studio]

Oh...and if you do just tap for a couple of measures, chances are you will be off because of the quick start/stop for that short duration...whereas if you do it for a minute , and even do it twice (like I always do) there is a natural averaging that occurs and your counted BMP will most likely be the right one.
Every time I try to tap-set a DDL box with just 5-6 taps…it ALWAYS drifts after a minute. But when I tap it out for a longer period, and get my taping into a longer, steadier groove…then the DDL stays on the money throughout the song.
go.

That's why the freeware app called "taptempo" that RAMI suggested built in an averaging function. You tap as many times as you want, but it gives you a more correct BPM the more you tap. Pretty efficient don't you think? That's basically what I was after. Although I would still like a blinking light click track as well. I know at least one drummer that prefers to use those.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Understanding BPM, and how one chooses to set up a click track when recording are different things. NO doubt the OP understand BPM perfectly well. Creative people can have very specific things that add to or repress their creativity. Creative people are being smart when they recognize that and find ways of working that emphasize their strengths and minimize frustration. Additionally, a small percentage of people feel awkward with anything number-related beyond a very basic level. There are many types of intelligence, and musical aptitudes can be very specific in relation to that.

You sure?

Anyways, that is a pretty good idea. But you still need to tell it the BPM. What I want is something I can tap. The fact is, I have no idea how many beats per minute the music I'm playing is. It feels like a waste of time when I sit there and keep trying until I find the correct BPM in the box. If I could just tap a pad to the tempo I want, well that would be a huge time saver.

Underground, I'm not trying to be a cock here, but my personal experience is that while it doesn't matter so much when you're working on your own, having a fundamental knowledge of the building blocks of music really helps when you're playing with other musicians. I was jamming with a guitarist the other night who's also into prog but has very little interest in music theory - he's one of these "I play by ear" guys. He was showing me one of his riffs, and I was having the hardest time following because I was having a hard time finding the downbeats (it was in an odd time signature, plus pretty syncopated, and we were playing without a drummer so there wasn't much framework). Had the guy been able to tell me "Oh, it's in 11/8, I count it like this" I'd have been able to pick it up pretty quickly, but instead it was "I don't know, I just think in terms of strums." It was pretty irritating, and it took me a couple minutes to get synced up with him where if I'd had any idea WTF he was counting it'd have been much faster.

This is an extreme example, I'll admit, but the point still stands - being able to play a riff and think, "eh, that's probably somewhere in the 120-140 bpm ballpark, a little faster than two beats a second," coupled with an idea of what's getting a beat and how many beats are in a measure really are pretty fundamental to putting a song together. I'm not saying don't use a tap-tempo calculator or anything - do what you gotta do - but my concern was more that not only did you not really seem to know what the approximate BPM of one of your songs were, you also seemed to have no interest in learning how to tell.

 

[miroslav]

Maybe it's just me, but you come off as kind of arrogant.

Maybe it is....

You come off as a spokesman attorney.
Do you also have cape?

 

[NewAgeMuttLange]

You know, what I like to do is have the guitarist sit down (on an electric guitar, yet unplugged) I will then sit in hearing distance, and set a mic up to record. I then record me playing a cowbell to the guitarist's playing.

Two things done...

A) Click Track
B) Cowbell Track

All problems solved :-D

--Paul

 

[undrgrnd studio]

having a fundamental knowledge of the building blocks of music really helps when you're playing with other musicians. I was jamming with a guitarist the other night who's also into prog but has very little interest in music theory - he's one of these "I play by ear" guys. He was showing me one of his riffs, and I was having the hardest time following because I was having a hard time finding the downbeats (it was in an odd time signature, plus pretty syncopated, and we were playing without a drummer so there wasn't much framework). Had the guy been able to tell me "Oh, it's in 11/8, I count it like this" I'd have been able to pick it up pretty quickly, but instead it was "I don't know, I just think in terms of strums." It was pretty irritating, and it took me a couple minutes to get synced up with him where if I'd had any idea WTF he was counting it'd have been much faster.

This is an extreme example, I'll admit, but the point still stands - being able to play a riff and think, "eh, that's probably somewhere in the 120-140 bpm ballpark, a little faster than two beats a second," coupled with an idea of what's getting a beat and how many beats are in a measure really are pretty fundamental to putting a song together. I'm not saying don't use a tap-tempo calculator or anything - do what you gotta do - but my concern was more that not only did you not really seem to know what the approximate BPM of one of your songs were, you also seemed to have no interest in learning how to tell.

I don't know that it matters to me other than when recording. I have been playing with different musicians for so long that we always just sync up without any problems. I have taken a music theory class in college, plus my nearly 20 years of playing 4 instruments doesn't hurt. But when it comes down to it, how many BPM a song is never comes up. Never. I'm not saying it isn't important, I'm sure to some styles of music and for professional "sit in and sight read" guys it does matter. But not to me.

Just to give you some background so you don't think I just started in music. I'm 30. Started playing when I was 12. I played in crappy rock bands since I was 14. Then moved on to jam bands at about 17. Played bars, places like Toads in New Haven, played clear channel events, festivals, and even one of there radio stations twice, and then moved on to pseudo-prog rock in my early 20s, stopped playing out for 5 years, and then I started home recording, and I'm in a garage punk band that plays out occasionally. I have friends that tour professionally and live in Brooklyn, and friends that record cartoon soundtracks and professional bands. I'm not a newbie by any means. I'm not a jazz player or pro recording engineer, but I don't qualify as someone with no knowledge of music or desire to learn.

 

[Supercreep]

So...how many BMP is your song?

That IS the correct BMP...and any time afterwards that I've tested one or two up/down, I always came back to the BMP I initially counted off.
It’s as accurate for finding the BMP that works for my song as anything else…maybe even more so because it takes into account the feel while playing for awhile rather than just tapping for a couple of measures.
It takes less time to do that than it does to guess at the BMP and then fiddle with it until you find what you like.

Oh...and if you do just tap for a couple of measures, chances are you will be off because of the quick start/stop for that short duration...whereas if you do it for a minute , and even do it twice (like I always do) there is a natural averaging that occurs and your counted BMP will most likely be the right one.
Every time I try to tap-set a DDL box with just 5-6 taps…it ALWAYS drifts after a minute. But when I tap it out for a longer period, and get my taping into a longer, steadier groove…then the DDL stays on the money throughout the song.

What's BMP?

 

[miroslav]

It's when you count your tempo backwards....

My hands get dyslexic from time to time when I type.

 

[Dogbreath]

Maybe it is....

You come off as a spokesman attorney.
Do you also have cape?

I have a cape.

And a mask.

And underroos.

 

[XLR]

You sure?

Yep. I've been a music teacher for 20 yrs and the subject of music psychology, perception and music education research has been of constant interest to me. Specifics of pitch and rhythm aptitude and perception, among other things, and what inspires or interferes with creativity varies widely from person to person. My experience as a performer working with other musicians has shown me this also, though someone playing professionally has usually channeled their work into genres that let them capitalize on their strengths and avoid their weaknesses... good classical players have high skills in playing expressively from a score, good rock players have high skills at improv or working out their own parts, folk musicians just have to sound sincere, etc... The lucky few have high aptitudes at everything.

 

[grimtraveller]

So...how many BMP is your song?

You sure?



but my concern was more that not only did you not really seem to know what the approximate BPM of one of your songs were, you also seemed to have no interest in learning how to tell.

I haven't a clue what the BMP or BPM of any of my songs are. Until this debate came up, I'd never even thought about it. And now you've all gone and corrupted me !

 

[miroslav]

Pre-recording days, when I was just a player...I never knew either...or even when I was recoding on-the-fly in the early days when all I had was a 4-track tape deck and couldn't afford to waste a track on any CLICK.

But once MIDI came into to the picture, and sequencers, and SMPTE/MTC for locking stuff together....
...all of a sudden a CLICK track was part of the SOP.
So....if you lay down a CLICK, you have to know the BPM.

 

[dastrick]

It's amazing to me that a thread that started with a simple question about a tool to help the op can be turned around into what people think the op should be doing and what he knows and doesn't know. All he wants is a tool that lets him tap the temp and tell him what BPM he is tapping. That's not so freaking hard to answer...................................or is it?

 

[miroslav]

It's amazing to me that a thread that started with a simple question...

They all start like that, don't they?

It's an Internet forum...this thread is average.
But you have to admit, that by getting all kinds of responses instead of just one person posting a link to some BPM app (there were a couple of those too)...some other aspects of taps/BPM/clicks were also brought to light.
Ain't Internet forums cool that way?

 

[dastrick]

They all start like that, don't they?

It's an Internet forum...this thread is average.
But you have to admit, that by getting all kinds of responses instead of just one person posting a link to some BPM app (there were a couple of those too)...some other aspects of taps/BPM/clicks were also brought to light.
Ain't Internet forums cool that way?

I agree completely. But, not to the point of insulting a person's intelligence by saying that he/she doesn't understand BPM.

 

[ez_willis]

It's amazing to me that a thread that started with a simple question about a tool to help the op can be turned around into what people think the op should be doing and what he knows and doesn't know. All he wants is a tool that lets him tap the temp and tell him what BPM he is tapping. That's not so freaking hard to answer...................................or is it?

no. i've done it twice with a tool he already has.

 

[miroslav]

I agree completely. But, not to the point of insulting a person's intelligence by saying that he/she doesn't understand BPM.

I don't think anyone was really being "insulting"...and the OP did admit that BMPs wasn't something he delt with too often.

But as the thread evolved...most seemed to get more out of it then what they put in...or at least as much as you can get out of a discussion about BPMs!