drstawl
Banned
Maybe. I don't know. What I *do* know is that it is not the nicest mic in their mic cabinet.acorec said:
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
Even if you are recording only one voice at a time you still need a few mics to match to the voices of the various singers that will be recording. One voice at a time does not equal one mic in the studio.
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Excuse me, Toby, but he did say pop, gospel, and jazz. And the tracking has nothing to do with whether a given signal sits in a projected mix or not. Real recording involves a flattering translation of the original source. The better the source is, the more accuracy is required in that translation. Gospel and pop both involve multiple singers, with or without overdubs, and singers of a wide variety of basic sound. Jazz requires mic'ing standup bass, brass/saxes, harmonica, strings, African percussion, piano. We're not talking about "beats" or electronic music here, we're talking abouit recording complex mixes with the entire spectrum of acoustic instruments, and multiple vocalists.
That's the whole point. The mic cabinet and pres needed for rap/hip-hop are peanuts compared to the needs of gospel or pop. I'm afraid a cheap dynamic plugged into a Bellari is not in the ball park.-Richie
That's the whole point. The mic cabinet and pres needed for rap/hip-hop are peanuts compared to the needs of gospel or pop. I'm afraid a cheap dynamic plugged into a Bellari is not in the ball park.-Richie
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anppilot1
New member
OK. not knowing that I'd get ripped apart, turned inside then back out, I know that my "front end" sucks. No kidding. I had a studio owner tell me a long time ago that "its not what you may or may not have, but what you can achieve with what you have." With that said, I know I need better mics and pre's. But I've made alot of stuff that is getting radio airplay here in dallas. Done a few jingles, beats in backrounds for dj's talking, and local hip hop artist. not once did anyone say, "man that mic sucks", "man that pre sucks." I know it isn't the best, but HOWEVER: They LOVE the finished product. Now with that said, I have to eq and process the hell out of a vocal track to get it to sound great....maybe, maybe, I wont have to work as hard to get it to sound great with better mics and pres.
So What would you recomend for a pre and better mics? Dont hold back. I have 3 grand to spend.
PS, I know I'm a good engineer and producer, but "I can always learn more."
So What would you recomend for a pre and better mics? Dont hold back. I have 3 grand to spend.
PS, I know I'm a good engineer and producer, but "I can always learn more."
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Well, Anppilot, I do have to hold back, because 3 grand will only touch the surface of what you need. You need dynamics, small diaphragm condensers, a kick drum mic, at least one main vocal condenser, and a utility condenser. But if you want to take a step up for 3k, I'd start like this.
Basic 2 channel preamp- Toft ATC-2 $1000. Really good 2 channel pres are more like $2500, but you need mics.
dynamic- Elecreovoice EV20- This is usable as a vocal mic and a kick mic. or Sennheiser MD441. Either one about $600.
Vocal condenser- The sky's the limit here, but I would recommend Shure KSM44 because it's (only) $700 and versatile.
Utility condenser (also good for some vocals) AKG C414B-ULS- good on a wide variety of instruments and percussion, everything from guitar to violin to piano. $700.
There, your 3K is gone. Initially, spend $100 at Guitar Center for a pair of Oktava MC012's for small diaphragms, and upgrade later to AKG C451's, $600 the pair. These are middle of the road mics, but all of them are useful. I've got $7000 in mics and $4000 in preamps, and I'm not even close to what I would need to be to go pro.-Richie
Basic 2 channel preamp- Toft ATC-2 $1000. Really good 2 channel pres are more like $2500, but you need mics.
dynamic- Elecreovoice EV20- This is usable as a vocal mic and a kick mic. or Sennheiser MD441. Either one about $600.
Vocal condenser- The sky's the limit here, but I would recommend Shure KSM44 because it's (only) $700 and versatile.
Utility condenser (also good for some vocals) AKG C414B-ULS- good on a wide variety of instruments and percussion, everything from guitar to violin to piano. $700.
There, your 3K is gone. Initially, spend $100 at Guitar Center for a pair of Oktava MC012's for small diaphragms, and upgrade later to AKG C451's, $600 the pair. These are middle of the road mics, but all of them are useful. I've got $7000 in mics and $4000 in preamps, and I'm not even close to what I would need to be to go pro.-Richie
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toby.I.
New member
Excuse me, Toby, but he did say pop, gospel, and jazz.
i assumed the tracks this guy was doing were synth/sample based seing has only one mic.
And the tracking has nothing to do with whether a given signal sits in a projected mix or not.
i was refering to most of the sound sources are synths, and he seems to be recording only vocals. there for the need for expensive signal processing is not quite as great as most of the synth patchs will be chosen to fit together in a mix.
if your looking for a good all round mic i've had good experiences with the neuman m147 ( about £1000-£1500 in the uk). that should give you enough for a decent pre amp.
i assumed the tracks this guy was doing were synth/sample based seing has only one mic.
And the tracking has nothing to do with whether a given signal sits in a projected mix or not.
i was refering to most of the sound sources are synths, and he seems to be recording only vocals. there for the need for expensive signal processing is not quite as great as most of the synth patchs will be chosen to fit together in a mix.
if your looking for a good all round mic i've had good experiences with the neuman m147 ( about £1000-£1500 in the uk). that should give you enough for a decent pre amp.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
Hopefully someone will be along with info for the purpose of getting some good mics. I can't help with that as all I have are the cheap variety.
But I want to comment on the "getting ripped apart" statement you made. I see people say this all the time and I went back and read thru the thread and absolutely no one "ripped you apart". Yes, there were those who weren't delicate about saying that equipment does not a pro studio make and that it would take skills and attitude and ability to accomplish that. But how is that "ripping you apart"?
You did ask what you needed and a couple of guys said that your front end was crappy and that was where you needed to concentrate. Isn't that exactly what you asked? I guess 'cause no one gushed about what great stuff you've got then that's "ripping you apart"? I'm asking 'cause I don't understand.
There are a lot of very experienced and knowledgable folks on this board and we don't get all googley-eyed just 'cause someone puts up a list of equipment and tells us how good they are and "others have said the same thing".
I'm not sure why I'm on a rant about this.......I have no doubt that you are a talented engineer and will be putting out some good stuff. I think it's because I so often see people post a thread clearly expecting everyone to ooh and aah over their gear or abilities and then overreact when no one does.
You asked a question and different people had different answers for you. Pick and choose which ones seem useful to you. Some might be more right than others.....but noone "ripped you apart"
But I want to comment on the "getting ripped apart" statement you made. I see people say this all the time and I went back and read thru the thread and absolutely no one "ripped you apart". Yes, there were those who weren't delicate about saying that equipment does not a pro studio make and that it would take skills and attitude and ability to accomplish that. But how is that "ripping you apart"?
You did ask what you needed and a couple of guys said that your front end was crappy and that was where you needed to concentrate. Isn't that exactly what you asked? I guess 'cause no one gushed about what great stuff you've got then that's "ripping you apart"? I'm asking 'cause I don't understand.
There are a lot of very experienced and knowledgable folks on this board and we don't get all googley-eyed just 'cause someone puts up a list of equipment and tells us how good they are and "others have said the same thing".
I'm not sure why I'm on a rant about this.......I have no doubt that you are a talented engineer and will be putting out some good stuff. I think it's because I so often see people post a thread clearly expecting everyone to ooh and aah over their gear or abilities and then overreact when no one does.
You asked a question and different people had different answers for you. Pick and choose which ones seem useful to you. Some might be more right than others.....but noone "ripped you apart"
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chessrock
Banned
anppilot1 said:
Well, then that pretty much negates any of the negative things any of us have said about your stuff, then, really.
I think Toby kinda' nailed it, there. It really depends on what you are looking to do. If you want to be able to record an entire band, then it will take something a lot closer to what Richard mentioned. But if all you're doing are vocals on top of mostly keyboard parts, then I would recommend getting at least:
1) An Electrovoice RE-20 and/or a Shure SM7, since it looks like you're doing some radio spots and voiceover and what not.
2) A good, flattering vocal condenser. I'd look at some of the B.L.U.E, or something within the Audio Technica 40 series range. Lots of options, actually, but those should give you a good start.
3) One professional-quality mic pre. The Grace Design 101 would give you a professiona-caliber tool at your disposal . . . and much better sound quality than what you're currently getting out of your Behringer board.
4) A good, solid D.I. input for keys/synths or bass guitar. An Avalon U5 would be very sweet. Perhaps something simpler with a Jensen Transformer -- like a Countryman DI.
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chessrock
Banned
Richard Monroe said:
Richie, you've got better stuff than about 90% of the studios in Chicago.
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Yes Chessrock, but that only proves that the world is full of snake oil salesmen who'd like to pass themselves off as recording engineers, and their project studios as commercial enterprises. Actually, my front end is fairly respectable, now I have to do 3 things to reach the entry-level pro studio. 1.- get a better recorder/FX/Compressor. Now I need a back end. (Hell between me and the guy who started this thread, we might almost have a studio!) 2.- better room- dedicated building. 3- more experience/skill. I'm not ready yet. Well, we're going to Pro Tools in the spring. Then I start talking to architects. At least another 2 years.-Richie
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
In addition to the suggestions from Chessrock, I'd suggest the FMR RNP preamp as an affordable 2 channel model to consider as well. I own a Grace 201 and it's great, but I don't think you need to go that high right now. You just need to get your mics and preamps out of the gutter and you'll find the quality of tracks you can produce will jump.
Since you are getting the work you are, then you're obviously doing a lot of things right. Better recording gear combined with your studio skills will help you move out of the local market into possibly bigger things.
As Richie's recent post indicates, it takes a great deal of time to really put a studio together right. The best way to plan a studio is in a time frame of years. Thinking smaller will only end up wasting a lot of money. So plan out big and buy big, even if it means getting fewer but better boxes right now.
Since you are getting the work you are, then you're obviously doing a lot of things right. Better recording gear combined with your studio skills will help you move out of the local market into possibly bigger things.
As Richie's recent post indicates, it takes a great deal of time to really put a studio together right. The best way to plan a studio is in a time frame of years. Thinking smaller will only end up wasting a lot of money. So plan out big and buy big, even if it means getting fewer but better boxes right now.
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chessrock
Banned
Richard Monroe said:
I'm not sure that I've heard any of your work, but it is admirable to admit one's own level of preparedness.
If I were to talk to two mastering engineers . . . and one said he had a pair of genelecs, and the other said he knew exactly where and how severe his room modes were, I think I'd rather go with the second guy without even having to know what he was monitoring with (provided they were both reputable).
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Well, Chessrock, I set out to build this studio to track an album, not to mix it, and not to master it, just track it. And that is what I have done. I've now got the raw tracks in Pro Tools, and we're downloading it to Littledog tomorrow. If you want to hear some of the raw tracks, here's the link-
www.nowhereradio.com/artists/?aid=3239/album680
Look, Ma, no panning- mono. No EQ, no compression, no reverb- naked. Even those house mixes are dated now, there's been quite a bit of re-tracking and re-mixing since they were put up. I can't wait to hear what some of this sounds like after it's been well processed. Woo Hoo. But even at my neophyte level, there's some commercial work I can do. We're tracking a Classical solo guitar album by jazz master Christopher Woitach in the spring. One X-Y pair, panned hard left and hard right. No compression, no reverb- naked. Should be right up my alley. We're also doing an English translation of a Hellenic text for the NEA, with lyre interludes between the chapters.
The main thing is- I haven't put up a sign that says this is a commercial studio, but I am beginning to do some limited commercial work that is within my capabilities, which is OK. My God, on New Years Eve, I get to record an 88 piece orchestra at Mechanics hall, a $200 million+ hall built to record classical music. I am so psyched! But I am doing that for free, because the conductor asked me. I actually turned down money, because I refuse to claim to be able to do something I'm not sure I can do. If they like the finished recording, I'll be happy to sell it to them.
I actually think of classical music as easy to deal with, because the nature of my work for the last 2 years has been all about mics and mic placement, recording an unprocessed signal. Classical people love that.-Richie
www.nowhereradio.com/artists/?aid=3239/album680
Look, Ma, no panning- mono. No EQ, no compression, no reverb- naked. Even those house mixes are dated now, there's been quite a bit of re-tracking and re-mixing since they were put up. I can't wait to hear what some of this sounds like after it's been well processed. Woo Hoo. But even at my neophyte level, there's some commercial work I can do. We're tracking a Classical solo guitar album by jazz master Christopher Woitach in the spring. One X-Y pair, panned hard left and hard right. No compression, no reverb- naked. Should be right up my alley. We're also doing an English translation of a Hellenic text for the NEA, with lyre interludes between the chapters.
The main thing is- I haven't put up a sign that says this is a commercial studio, but I am beginning to do some limited commercial work that is within my capabilities, which is OK. My God, on New Years Eve, I get to record an 88 piece orchestra at Mechanics hall, a $200 million+ hall built to record classical music. I am so psyched! But I am doing that for free, because the conductor asked me. I actually turned down money, because I refuse to claim to be able to do something I'm not sure I can do. If they like the finished recording, I'll be happy to sell it to them.
I actually think of classical music as easy to deal with, because the nature of my work for the last 2 years has been all about mics and mic placement, recording an unprocessed signal. Classical people love that.-Richie
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chessrock
Banned
Richard Monroe said:
That's kinda' how I originally started doing it like 2 years ago. I realize I'm still not in the quote-unquote big leagues yet, but I'm also not naive enough to think my work isn't at least worth some money. I think I'm priced accordingly -- obviously, guys like Mike Haggler over at King Size (worked on Wilco records) is going to come at a heftier price tag
, and Albini over at Electric Audio will be quite a bit more than either of us. Still, I've managed to put together stuff that has gotten radio play for some bands, has gotten an act signed to a label, and at the very least has helped guys land paying gigs all over the city.
I figure that's worth something, so I charge people.
I'm not saying that any old schmoe or snake oil salesman should be passing himself off as a professional AE, but at the same time, we should recognize that there are levels of "in between" that is of some value, and that people feel are worth money and will pay for. That's really where the mid-level project studio is finding it's niche.BTW -- I really like your songs, Richie. Good luck on your concert.
sweetnubs
New member
"the world is full of snake oil salesmen who'd like to pass themselves off as recording engineers, and their project studios as commercial enterprises."-richard monroe.
tsk tsk. somebody is starting to sound like dear sweetnubs.
tsk tsk. somebody is starting to sound like dear sweetnubs.
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anppilot1
New member
So since my front end sucks.......
Well, How does this sound:
1. PreSonus DigiMAX 96k 8ch Mic pre $1299.99
2. FocusriteRed 8 Pre $1699.99
3. ADA1000 A/D Converter $ 499.99
4. Shure KSM44 Studio Microphone $ 699.99
5. Audio-Technica AT4040 Mic $ 299.99
6. Shure SM-57 $ 99.99
7. Shure SM-58 $ 89.99
*******************************************
TOTAL: $4689.93
I'll have to rob $1700 more from savings then I wanted to, but it looks like I'll still have money left over for my wife to get her nails, pedicure, hair, skirts and shoes...and maybe her breasts implants
Not that a size C is bad, but why do they bigger? Jeesh.
Oh well, maybe I'll have a real studio someday.
Cheers
Well, How does this sound:
1. PreSonus DigiMAX 96k 8ch Mic pre $1299.99
2. FocusriteRed 8 Pre $1699.99
3. ADA1000 A/D Converter $ 499.99
4. Shure KSM44 Studio Microphone $ 699.99
5. Audio-Technica AT4040 Mic $ 299.99
6. Shure SM-57 $ 99.99
7. Shure SM-58 $ 89.99
*******************************************
TOTAL: $4689.93
I'll have to rob $1700 more from savings then I wanted to, but it looks like I'll still have money left over for my wife to get her nails, pedicure, hair, skirts and shoes...and maybe her breasts implants
Not that a size C is bad, but why do they bigger? Jeesh. Oh well, maybe I'll have a real studio someday.
Cheers
A
anppilot1
New member
So since my front end sucks.......
Well, How does this sound:
1. PreSonus DigiMAX 96k 8ch Mic pre $1299.99
2. FocusriteRed 8 Pre $1699.99
3. ADA1000 A/D Converter $ 499.99
4. Shure KSM44 Studio Microphone $ 699.99
5. Audio-Technica AT4040 Mic $ 299.99
6. Shure SM-57 $ 99.99
7. Shure SM-58 $ 89.99
*******************************************
TOTAL: $4689.93
So how does sound? What am I still missing?
I'll have to rob $1700 more from savings then I wanted to, but it looks like I'll still have money left over for my wife to get her nails, pedicure, hair, skirts and shoes...and maybe her breasts implants Not that a size C is bad, but why do they bigger? Jeesh.
Oh well, maybe I'll have a real studio someday.
Cheers
Well, How does this sound:
1. PreSonus DigiMAX 96k 8ch Mic pre $1299.99
2. FocusriteRed 8 Pre $1699.99
3. ADA1000 A/D Converter $ 499.99
4. Shure KSM44 Studio Microphone $ 699.99
5. Audio-Technica AT4040 Mic $ 299.99
6. Shure SM-57 $ 99.99
7. Shure SM-58 $ 89.99
*******************************************
TOTAL: $4689.93
So how does sound? What am I still missing?
I'll have to rob $1700 more from savings then I wanted to, but it looks like I'll still have money left over for my wife to get her nails, pedicure, hair, skirts and shoes...and maybe her breasts implants
Not that a size C is bad, but why do they bigger? Jeesh. Oh well, maybe I'll have a real studio someday.
Cheers
Outlaws
New member
Its so nice to see someone else get told "how it is" instead of it being me...
A 57 and 58 are more or less the same. One has a windscreen, thats it.
A 57 and 58 are more or less the same. One has a windscreen, thats it.
Outlaws
New member
Its so nice to see other people get told straight up "how it is" instead of it being me...
Outlaws
New member
Its so nice to see other people get told straight up "how it is" instead of it being me...