What Confucius taught about songwriting

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Kinda like when the Wright bro's built the first airplane...They didn't know anything about the principles(rules) of aerodynamics
but were able to do it anyway. Now that we know the principles, we are able to conceive and build way better planes, and even to break the rules . Maybe we should say "discover new principles"


chazba
 
PORCA MISERA ! la Madonna et touti santi!
When will this end!?
 
Layla Nahar said:
PORCA MISERA ! la Madonna et touti santi!
When will this end!?

never....it'll never end.....it is everlasting....eternal......

Domino Sancto espiritus sanctum........
 
A semantic issue

As with many heated discussions I have seen, there is an underlying semantic issue here -- in this case, what does the word "rules" mean in the context of music? Several of the posters alluded to the semantic issue, but lotuscent came closest to explaining it.

In the context of music, "rules" simply means "cultural conventions". Different musical styles incorporate different conventions, and these conventions can different hugely from one world culture to another. Within a specific world culture, different genres tend to share certain rules (e.g. a 12-note scale), but may differ considerably as to the other rules. So the rules encapsulate certain cultural expectations, but that doesn't mean that songs that follow the rules are "good" and songs that violate the rules are "bad".

If you are intentionally trying to write within a genre, then it is extremely helpful to be familar with the conventions of that genre. After you know the rules, then of course, you may elect elect to break them -- or more likely, stretch them a bit. By violating the rules only slightly, you can give an interesting edge to your song while still remaining within the genre. Over time, this pushing of the envelope leads to evolution in the conventions.

Conventions are not necessarily a restriction on creativity. Many creative people enjoy the challenge of working within a rule system -- perhaps not all the time, but at least sometimes. Many a classical composer has elected to follow the strict rules of a symphonic structure rather than simply writing a free-form fantasy. Poets have gladly tackled the rigid structure of the sonnet -- but that does not prevent them from writing in other formats as well.

Still, there is a lot to said for creating works that defy all conventions -- if you don't mind that there won't be much of an audience for it! Sadly, most people need to stay in touch with the familiar, and not deviate too far from it.
 
Re: A semantic issue

pbouchard said:
As with many heated discussions I have seen, there is an underlying semantic issue here -- in this case, what does the word "rules" mean in the context of music? Several of the posters alluded to the semantic issue, but lotuscent came closest to explaining it.

In the context of music, "rules" simply means "cultural conventions". Different musical styles incorporate different conventions, and these conventions can different hugely from one world culture to another. Within a specific world culture, different genres tend to share certain rules (e.g. a 12-note scale), but may differ considerably as to the other rules. So the rules encapsulate certain cultural expectations, but that doesn't mean that songs that follow the rules are "good" and songs that violate the rules are "bad".

If you are intentionally trying to write within a genre, then it is extremely helpful to be familar with the conventions of that genre. After you know the rules, then of course, you may elect elect to break them -- or more likely, stretch them a bit. By violating the rules only slightly, you can give an interesting edge to your song while still remaining within the genre. Over time, this pushing of the envelope leads to evolution in the conventions.

Conventions are not necessarily a restriction on creativity. Many creative people enjoy the challenge of working within a rule system -- perhaps not all the time, but at least sometimes. Many a classical composer has elected to follow the strict rules of a symphonic structure rather than simply writing a free-form fantasy. Poets have gladly tackled the rigid structure of the sonnet -- but that does not prevent them from writing in other formats as well.

Still, there is a lot to said for creating works that defy all conventions -- if you don't mind that there won't be much of an audience for it! Sadly, most people need to stay in touch with the familiar, and not deviate too far from it.

pbouchard,

that was extremely well said. I also dont see the "rules" as rules per se, I see them as more of a set of Do's and Dont's.

Its like corporate dressing. There are no rules, but there are definitely Do's and Dont's. eg, let the socks match the pants, let the belt match the shoes, let the tie match the shirt, etc etc.

Many aspiring songwriters simply dont know that Do's and Dont's exist for melody writing. For example, an augmented 4th will hardly ever sound musical.

Know the rules so that you can break them.
 
CyanJaguar said:
. For example, an augmented 4th will hardly ever sound musical.


actually, it happens a lot in classical forms. when modulating to the dominant key, the #4 is the leading tone to the new key, and it often follews the original key's tonic.

ok, sorry for being a smartass.

knowing the rules in order to break them assumes that someone needs to see the precedent before evolving.

there are other ways... other paths.

choose
 
>>>>any attempt to break the rules of songwriting ( or anything else) without knowing the rules will always result in embarrassment.

>>>>I was going to ask Roktuk how he would stray from the verse/chorus format without sounding stupid to the world.


Ofcourse, everyone wants people to like their music. However, if you are this concerned with impressing people then perhaps you are missing the point entirely.
 
lotuscent said:
actually, it happens a lot in classical forms. when modulating to the dominant key, the #4 is the leading tone to the new key, and it often follews the original key's tonic.

ok, sorry for being a smartass.

knowing the rules in order to break them assumes that someone needs to see the precedent before evolving.

there are other ways... other paths.

choose

Maybe that is why people dont like opera that much. I bet you that you that you wont find an augmented 4th in verdi or puccini though. Those guys knew how to write pleasing melodies.
 
CyanJaguar said:
I bet you that you that you wont find an augmented 4th in verdi or puccini though. Those guys knew how to write pleasing melodies.

there is this guy named Mozart who does it a lot. I hear people like his melodies quite a bit.
 
verse/chorus

If u are going to stray from the verse/chorus format. Stray towards techno music. It is set to take over the world.
 
nah unless it has vocals over it then yes, maybe. Radio head is almost like that. But people want to hear the voice. I think.
 
There are many different styles of techno. Some have voice, others don't. It's music for the mind.
 
Im interested in mixing techno like mixes with live guitars and vocals. I think it is the future of music that way.
 
doctor_egg said:
give it time.


Well its had about a decade so far. Its just not strong enough to break through and be a craze. Its had enough chances.
 
I suppose my take on this whole rules thing is: How "commercial" (note the quotes) do you want your music to be? If you are after that fat contract, you'll find that record companies are fairly conservative. They need to fit things into specific radio formats or more practically, figure out which bin to put the CD in at the store. For that case, you can start in the box and push the envelope a little, but you can't get too far out. Once established, you can push the envelope a bit more.

Not worried about commercial? Then "we don' need no steenkeeng rules"!!

It's truly my hope that the internet will help the guys who are outside the box.
 
Benreturns said:
Well its had about a decade so far. Its just not strong enough to break through and be a craze. Its had enough chances.

Think of rap music. That was underground for more than a decade before it took over the world. U may deny this, if u have been living in a box.

Techno music has been slowly gathering strength for a long time until recently, the club techno scene has begun to boom.
 
i thought it kind of died down a little . it was real hot for awhile. when everybody was going to raves.
 
voxjockey said:
I suppose my take on this whole rules thing is: How "commercial" (note the quotes) do you want your music to be? If you are after that fat contract, you'll find that record companies are fairly conservative. They need to fit things into specific radio formats or more practically, figure out which bin to put the CD in at the store. For that case, you can start in the box and push the envelope a little, but you can't get too far out. Once established, you can push the envelope a bit more.

Not worried about commercial? Then "we don' need no steenkeeng rules"!!

It's truly my hope that the internet will help the guys who are outside the box.

well said.
 
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