What comes first - music or lyrics?

V

Vease

New member
Although I write songs, I don't consider myself to be a 'songwriter' - heres why:

I always start by getting an idea when fiddling around on guitar, either a riff or chord sequence, and then I build the whole musical structure around that idea. This includes the intro and ending, plus any layered guitar parts. I then program a backing track and record all the guitar parts over it. (I play a kind of old fashioned blues rock style with bits of metallic riffing thrown in).

At this point I have no title,no subject matter, no melodic ideas for the vocals, nothing except a fully worked out piece of rock music. If it has taken a couple of days to get the music sounding like I hear it in my head, the lyrics are cobbled together in about half an hour and I hear no vocal parts in my head at all.

I guess I am just a guitar player, really, but does anyone else have problems the other way? i.e. bits of pure poetry that you struggle to put into a musical context?
 
Sorry people, I really ought to check other threads before throwing this stuff out. I see (from Moni's post below) that other folks DO write lyrics without being able to get the right musical backing.

I'd still be interested in hearing about your particular MO when it comes to songwriting though.
 
What I find that happens with me is that I create some song on guitar, usually just acoustic, with the vocal melody at the same time. I kind of just let it come out. A stream of conscienceness thing. I don't care if the words are all total crap. Then I end up with a song where the vocal melody/rhytem is tight with the guitar.

I then use that as a base idea an record everything (drums, bass, rhythem, lead and vocals). I always plan on re-writing the lyrics, and only lay them down when creating a song to capture the melody/feel of the vocal line. In fact, most of the time I only come up with the chorus and one verse (and maybe a break, if there is one). Just enough to say "that's how I want they vocals to be...". And I mean that's how I want them to be right down to the phrasing, intensity, passion, and sometimes even specific vowel and consenent sounds. There's just not much of the typical songwriting *craft* features in the base lyrics, such as good metephors, storylines, etc... (actually, the artist in me says "who the f#%k cares, it's what comes out when you let it, so it is what it should be". And the artist may win in the end... :))

It seems to me that with a strong vocal melody/idea, the lyrics would be easier to write (for us non-poets). Think of it this way. Take some song that you like (someone elses, a cover tune) and re-write the words. You can usually come up with something cool because the vocal melody is there, and your familiar with it. That's how I approach my writing.

I'm right now reaching that point where I either have to live with what I got for lyrics (filling in the rest of the verses), or come up with some good lyrics. I want to mix some stuff down and I feel the music is just how I want it, but not the lyrics. I can totaly see replacing all the words with da da's, and giving it to someone to else write the lyrics. But, then that brings someone else in, which is something I've been hesitent to do.


Anyway, that's what I do...

Ziller
 
First Music then Lyrics

Yeah, I guess You're damn right with it, Ziller!
Everytime I try to write lyrics and then put 'em into music I realize that it won't work properly.

Cuz I always hear the music first roamin' around in my head. Then, when I try to write some really poetical lyrics to the music, mostly I fail, cuz I'm doin' too much at the same time!

Finally I realized that the best thing for me is really to concentrate on the music and melody and then figure out some matching sillables, then some words, and then the verse, the subject, the title.

Some ppl might disagree cuz some ppl treat a song as a vision, they have the subject and the title first, and then they put this vision into words and music.

But it's feels good to have a confirmation in what You're saying, Ziller,
greets
Jules
 
sometimes i think of a subject and i'm kindof putting words together and the music is well "there too".

most of the time it happens seperatly though. and oh our singer (female... what's a female singer called? not just singer is it?) always throws things around till she thinks it's okay...

guhlenn
 
I GOT DA ANSA!!!

well, you know, i play several instruments, have a lot of music experience, transcribe, can read all cleffs, am 15, and you can trust me, i've fooled around with songwriting forever. Gosh, on piano, guitar, bass drums all of it. Well, its usually generally easy to map out some good vocal parts. If you take your guitar, just play a sweet melody based around an octave or two, you can use it as vocals. Usually if you do this (i use a keyboard for mapping out vocals or vocals period), you can fit in the other parts pretty well. I know that trent reznor (nine inch nails) usually does it that way, unless he's making a huge mix. Try everything, try bass first, guitar first, and vocals first, whatever works the best works the best. I don't know if you'd like this band, but they're my favorite in terms of writing music and sound. Go to www.fingereleven.com and check out there music. You can tell that usually the vocalist comes up with neat parts and adds in interesting unique guitar chords. If you have any more questions i'm musicsdarkangel@yahoo.com. Hope this helps =).
 
It can go either way.
I have a lot of "poetry " because I haven't found the music to go with.
I have "instrumentals" because I don't have the lyrics.
And a lot of combinations in between.

There is ceratainly no right/wrong way to write a song..
It's just figuring out what works best for you.

I ALWAYS carry staff paper, a notebook and a small handheld tape recorder for ANY idea I come up with WHEREVER I am.
 
Here is what you do:

Find a a good friend who plays music and write together. It is so much more fun and effecient than writing alone. You can write a killer song that would take you days by yourself in an hour with a good collaborator.

Tucci
 
i don't think it's more efficient, anyway writing music shouldn't be effecient anyway. it's a feeling no? unless your writing just to get a hit, that's a different story

Guhlenn
 
It really doesnt matter, your method is as good as any as long as you are satisfied with the results. If it helps
any, I usually write my tunes the same way.
 
writing songs the way it goes for me

When I do a song,write a song or what ever. It all comes at the same time,
words & music.And it most always hits
me when I go to bed, I'm laying there trying to go to sleep,and things start rolling in my head,Thoughts of
many different things That I might be
trying to forget,Like for instance the the year I spent in Vietnam,like so many others of my generation,so
out comes the song (Nightmare of a solider).Or I might be saying my prayers as I lay there asking to be forgiven for the stupid things I may of said or done that day and (The Gates Of Hell) is born.I lie all types of music,with the exception of
this thing called rap.& I dont mean to put down anyone that does, But to me rap is not music.
At times I set around and just pick
a subject & write a song from it,
But nine times out of ten its when I'm laying there trying to unwind most of the many songs I have written
as I call it, Are born,words & music
most always come at the same time.
 
Writing Songs

Sometmes when I write I can write an entire song in one sitting and hear all the parts in my head just by writing the lyrics. I am kind of basing the song on what I hear inside my head and the music is more or less written already and is usally secondary.

But there are times when im just mucking about on my guitar and I have this incredible chord progression thing happening and no words are pouring out of me. I try to write songs about what Im feeling at a particular moment in time. If I am feeling nothing then the song exists for the moment as an instrumental and I revisit it at some other point so I can add lyrics.

I mean not every song needs lyrics to be a good song. There are plenty of instrumentals out there that have alot of feeling in them and you can feel the anguish or pain or even joy the artist is expressing. Thats whats called soul. It's the artist's soul speaking at that point.

So my point is, dont worry about trying to force lyrics out. That never makes for a good song anyways. A good song needs to come out naturally and with feeling. Im sure you all know that feeling of when you come up with a killer idea and you lay it down on a 4 track or something and that rush that comes over you.....That rush is what each and every artist should strive for.
 
Re: Writing Songs

alfugazi said:
Im sure you all know that feeling of when you come up with a killer idea and you lay it down on a 4 track or something and that rush that comes over you.....That rush is what each and every artist should strive for.
Click to expand...

I know that rush, and I couldn't agree more. And for me, that always comes from the music, not the lyrics.
 
Here's what I can offer

My rush as a songwriter comes when I suddenly put the lyrics and the concept of the song together. When that happens, the music and lyrics aren't even complete, but I suddenly understannd where the song is headed and what will make it unique.
I.E.: I recently visited a castle, and as I was walking through the rooms I could almost feel ghosts walking through the place. It was a very cool experience, and I wanted to write a song about it. I kicked around lyrics and a musical structure for about a month, and came to the conlusion that it just wasn't working on several levels. It just didn't have a broad enough emotional appeal for people to like it. AND THEN... I was musing on how so many songs are about love since everybody understands it, when I had this epiphany: compare wandering through the empty chambers of this castle to wandering through the chambers of your lover's heart. Empty rooms that were once familiar, now empty. Dim hallways and a candle almost ready to burn out...etc.
At that moment the whole song just dumped out of my brain and I understood where it wanted to go. At that moment the song became its own possession. Now I just need to put on the finishing touches and iron out a few more bugs and it will be done.
That moment is what I write songs for.
Aaron
http://www.aaroncheney.com
 
I read an interview w/ Paul McCartney where he described how he made one of his biggest hits -- forget which one... maybe it was "Yesterday". Supposedly, he woke up with the tune in his head, taped it/captured it somehow with "dumb lyrics" and then eventually worked in the final ones. Elton John doesn't even bother writing lyrics. Neither did Meatloaf. I loved Frank Zappa... my guess is with him the music came first, but I bet that he could go "the other way" too. Like, I bet "Valley Girl" started with the words. I wouldn't call him a "songwriter" though. I am curious about others in the rock history books. I really don't know much about this topic. For instance I wonder how Zepplin did it? Dylan? Joplin?

I think it's technically much harder to go the other way--you need more musical skills because you have to create something that fits a very tight structure, instead of doing what I do and just ramble about until something sounds cool, and then try to capture it. I knew a guy once that had a masters in composition from Julliard. He wrote this song based on a fairly well known poem... I forgot who wrote the poem. He used the original text, uncut. It was increadibly cool. I orchestrated a version of it for him. Man, it was so cool. Very subtle. And it grew on you upon repeated listenings. I don't even think this guy knew how cool it was.

luv
jk
 
aaron,

that was the best description i heard... that's what makes itso interresting. you start to write a song and think you know where you wanna go but it always ends up something you didn't think of before... very cool explanation.

guhlenn:)
 
Aaron

Aaron....That was poetry bro. I'd love to hear that when you put the finishing touches on it. Please keep us in the loop.


Now for another thought:
I think, something to strive for is not only the rush and the goosebumps that a particular thought gives us but also keeping in mind the way it is percieved by the listener. Yes, it is possible to have depth but I think there are numerous people that make up the listening audiences that have absolutely no clue of where you are coming from or what you are talking about. I think it is necessary to be deep as is equally important to keep it simple because the masses of fm-radio clones lack the attention span of a gnat and heaven forbid if they should have to actually use their brain and listen closely to what the artist message might be.

If I have been rambling, I do apologize.
 
nah, why bother with what the masses think? that's the beuaty of music, only I have to like it. i'm no britney who has to write hit records. of course i want my songs to be hits but if i write with the audience in mind how can the song stay personal? i think your making compromises on your (i hate this expression) "artistic freedom. besides most people don't get the point you're trying to make anyway, they just give it their own meaning.

greetz guhlenn
 
Stuff and things

Ain't insomnia grand? :)

I think the hardest part of songwriting is coming up with a melody that's pleasing, catchy, unique, enjoyable, or whatever it is that you're going for. Sometimes I can write a really good melody, and other times I can sit with my guitar (or at my computer) and just accomplish nothing at all.

Lyrics can be difficult for me at times, too. And I find - does anyone else experience this too? - that if the lyrics and melody don't form at the same time, then by the time I'm done I'm almost certainly going to be left with an instrumental or a poem, but not a song.

That's frustrating, because some of my strongest pieces of music are instrumentals. All they need is lyrics, and they could be songs (and this to me is better, as I'd much rather be a songwriter than a composer), but as those pieces are right now, they can only reach a very limited audience.

Only once have I ever heard a complete song in my mind - chords, melody, lyrics, arrangement - at the same time. I was going to sleep, when - bam! Suddenly there's a song in my head. I felt like I wasn't writing it - it had already been written, and I was just capturing it. I was "serving the song", if you will.

That was nice.

I'm always improving as a songwriter, but I'm still SO far from where I'd like to be. It's just amazing to me how some people (Pete Townshend, for instance) can churn out songs with such frequency.

Heck, I'm still a long way from even feeling comfortable calling myself a "songwriter". But, for what it's worth, here are some things I've learned:

Try collaboration. Find a fellow musician you respect, and bounce ideas back and forth. I recently tried this for the first time with a good friend of mine. I had a chord progression that I'd written on the guitar, just after a painful break-up. But I was getting no melody or lyrics whatsoever. I played the chord progression for my friend, who has the same songwriting difficulties that I do, and he took a notebook and started jotting stuff down. Before too long, he had a couple of verses and choruses, and a really strong melody. I wrote the rest of the words, and strengthened the melody a little bit, and we had a song. A damn good one, in fact. I think it helps if you know your collaborator well as a person, too. This guy knows everything that goes on in my personal life, so he knew exactly what emotion I was trying to express, with only that chord progression and my stories to go on.

Songs are often very melodramatic, even if they don't seem that way to the listener. If I'm trying to tell a story with my song, I might have to embellish the story a bit, but at the root there is always a very pure emotion that I am actually feeling.

Can't come up with anything? Try writing with something else. If my guitar playing is just coming out as a bunch of Pete Townshend chords or something, I'll put the guitar away and write on my computer. I have a wonderful MIDI program that lets you write music on an actual classical score, which helps quite a bit for writing.

So much for the insomnia. Time to sleep. :)
 
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