what audio editor to use to finalize / master / burn CDs?

  • Thread starter Thread starter minofifa
  • Start date Start date

what software to use for mastering, waveform editing, CD burning...

  • wavelabs 5.0

    Votes: 2 9.1%
  • wavelabs 4.x and lower

    Votes: 3 13.6%
  • Sound Forge

    Votes: 8 36.4%
  • Cool edit pro / audition

    Votes: 8 36.4%
  • other

    Votes: 1 4.5%

  • Total voters
    22
minofifa

minofifa

New member
hey all, after getting sonar 3, i have turned my attention to the process of mastering all of my tracks and editing the final wave form. right now i'm using cool edit but i would like osmething more powerful. I want software that lets me compare all of the tracks i'm putting on a CD for volume consistencing etc. I also want to burn my CD's in the same place. Is there such software available? I'm pretty ignorent when it comes to wavform editors / mastering software so any advice / info is much appreciated, Thanks a lot.
 
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For an all-in-one "get it close" type program that burns RedBook, WaveLab would be my first choice.
 
That makes 3 of us. Wavelab is the way to go.

It also serves an audio editor that works from within Sonar. Highlight a clip and go the tools menu and choose Wavelab, and the clip opens up in Wavelab ready to edited. Edit and close, and the clip in Sonar is updated with the changes.
 
yup i just found that out dachay.
i got my mitts on wavelab 4. pretty much the same shit minus DVD and surround sound (two features i can't/don't need). I'm finding it to be a very busy program for CD burning though. Lots of windows and peramters to mess with. I guess i'm just used to cool edit, very straight forward.
 
i've got a plugin that allows me to burn cds through cool edit pro... search for it on the net
 
jcnoernberg said:
i've got a plugin that allows me to burn cds through cool edit pro... search for it on the net
To RedBook standards??
 
webstop said:
Redbook standard CD is just a fancy name for an audio cd.

Hardly. And I can attest to that with dozens of situations.
 
does nero burn to redbook standards? is there something to click that says redbook?
 
Massive Master said:
Hardly. And I can attest to that with dozens of situations.

I agree, it is possible to make a non-RB compliant audio CD, but this is not my point.
You say that every once in while your clients bring you audio disks, which are not compliant with the RB. How many percent of clients? 10%, 5% or maybe 1%? So majority of people burn audio CDs that are perfectly compliant. I would think that those people are using same software as everyone else does: Wavelab, CD Architect, Nero or whatever. To me it means that unless I set some ridiculous settings, or burn track-at-once, or use card size disk, or put 250 little tracks, etc. I will get a perfect RB audio disk. As to the question, why those software packages do not contain some simple "Red Book Compliant" button? I don't know, maybe there are some licensing issues involved, or maybe not...
Imagine the situation. I come to a mastering engineer and he asks me something like: "Is your disk compliant with ANSI 85794-83457-983745 revision 59b?" Naturally I don't know and feel completely amateur. In reality all that scary standard may be stating is that the disk should be round in shape.
I think that the whole "red book compliance" issue is blown way beyond any reasonable proportions, and more than anything else it is used by pros to keep us, mere mortals, at a distance.
 
redbook compliant is in refrence to the amount of errors on a cd, if you burn at 1x, you will get less errors than on 4x 20x 52x... i only burn cd's at 1x, because it has the least amoung of jitter...
 
No, RedBook has nothing to do with the errors on a CD.

ALTHOUGH - To meet compliance, there has to be less than 200 C1 errors per second average over any 10 second period AND there can be NO C2 (E22) errors on the disc. NOT ONE.

And speed wise, with most modern drives, 4X has become the standard as burning technology has advanced. Running the disc at 1X in a burner that can handle 24X+ causes a higher error rate than at 4X.

Other than that, I'm not an expert on RedBook either - What I can tell you are the obviosities - 150 frame pre-gap before track one, 300 frames between any two start markers, disc-at-once, Lead-in TOC, the usual lot.

One of the keys is documentation - If I can't positively document for a FACT that a disc is certifiably compliant and C2 error free, it's NOT compliant. There is no "reasonable doubt" here. Either you can alter the index points with frame accuracy or you can't. If you can, you can either document it or you can't. If you can, it's either C2 free or it's not.

Now, if I give a client a non-compliant disc and they make 3,000 copies that don't work and it's traced to a C2 error that I let through, or 149 frames instead of 150 on the pre-gap, I have to call my lawyer 'cuz the shite is hitting the fan.

LONG STORY SHORT - If Nero or Whatever-O takes all this into consideration, the pre-gap, the TOC at the lead-in, and it can't document it, it has no worth to me. Any reputable plant won't accept a disc without P&Q documentation, and I would never consider giving a client a master PMCD without serialed & signed PQ and error status docs. I wouldn't expect my clients to expect anything less, either.

I've been on the bad side of non-RB discs too many times - I do a lot of live theatre work. Dance companies come in a lot with discs that were burned using Nero, CD Creator, etc. Pop those into a pro CD deck and if you're lucky, they'll track in and play 2/3 of the time. Last summer I had a squad on stage in front of a couple thousand people just standing there waiting for the disc to go. We had to pull them off the stage, run into the studio (on site) and grab a consumer CD deck that was there. That deck played it. A lot of consumer decks run fast & loose with RB rules. THAT's a part of the problem. If you've got a pro Denon or Marantz deck lying around, you'll find that they're not very cooperative with a non-compliant TOC.

Anyway, I asked if they'd mind if I checked their disc after the show. I brought it into my DAW at the theatre and found out that the TOC wasn't up to specs. No pre-gap - 0 frames. That was enough to keep the deck from tracking.

WEBSTOP - There's no big "Pro vs. Amateur" thing going on - PQ editing programs are more expensive just because of what they are. Just like PhotoShop is more expensive than Paint Shop Pro. PhotoShop has CMYK working space (pro) and PSP doesn't. If you've got WaveLab and a Plextor PlexWriter drive with PlexTools, you can write, error-check and document a RedBook disc as good as anyone.

On the percentage of clients - I have clients that all I do for them are RedBook transfers. Most are home studios with either Nero, etc. or a stand-alone CD burner. All I do is bring it in, index it, document, burn & error-check it. Others are competitive cheerleading & dance squads that have had non-RedBook nightmares (mostly at national competitions). Once a disc doesn't start in front of a crowd of 15,000 people (including the competition - and the judges), you have a tendency to not let it happen again.
 
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wow...

this is fascinating information! I had no idea that all cd-writing applications are not equal. I think we are beginning to see the importance of digital media/data being to perfect specifications alot more with DVD burning.


thanks for the info!
 
I'll add my little bit, and this is based on what I already learned from Mr Massive Master: get a Plextor Premium CDR/W drive. It's a little more expensive than a Lite-On (I paid $82 for mine) and it comes with software that allows you to check a disc for C1, C2 & CU errors, as well as some other utilities I haven't looked at yet. It was quite illuminating to test some of my Nero/Lite-On discs and find out what was really on there! Since I am finishing up a project that will be duplicated by a CD manufacturer, it was simple common sense to get one of these.

Other miscellaneous notes: Wavelab is running around $400 right now. CD Architect can be gotten for $200 and will make Red Book compliant CDs on ATAPI drives. Digidesign has Masterlist CD for about $500 but it seems to work mostly with SCSI drives.
 
Massive Master said:
Anyway, I asked if they'd mind if I checked their disc after the show. I brought it into my DAW at the theatre and found out that the TOC wasn't up to specs. No pre-gap - 0 frames. That was enough to keep the deck from tracking.
That is exactly the point. Someone has changed the settings without really knowing, what he was doing. Nero, for example inserts 2 seconds pre-gap by default "for Red Book compliance" purposes. Anyone can let as is, or remove it... And after burning an audio disk it allows a user to print 7 - 8 pages long report, which in particular will show frames, blocks, position of each track, DAO layout table and a whole lot of other barely readable text. I don't know if that is pro enough by your standards. Maybe not.
Wavelab is a top grade audio editor and mastering package, in which CD burning feature is like a logical extension of features. It is one of the most well thought, well designed and bug-free software I've seen. (BTW, at Steinberg BBS I read that there is just one single man behind it!) Nero is a disc burner, to which they added some wave editing, mixing and cover designing features. Therefore comparing these two absolutely different packages is not fair.
Let me quote you, John: "Dance companies come in a lot with discs that were burned using Nero, CD Creator, etc. Pop those into a pro CD deck and if you're lucky, they'll track in and play 2/3 of the time." So tell us, please, do these 2/3 of disks play in a pro CD deck by sheer "luck", or because they are fully compliant with RB? Is it that not a single disk made using Nero, CD Creator, etc. ever came out compliant?
 
The ones that don't usually aren't. The ones that DO play, some are, some aren't. It's hit-or-miss with non-compliant discs. One time I rememeber hitting play on track 4 and having it start in the middle of track 7. No reason. After ejecting and power cycling, I tried it again and it started somewhere completely different. There's no telling what's going to happen.

If Nero allows for documentation and proper pre-gaps, it's probably compliant. That's all good. There are probably quirks that can be ran around like putting a 75ms head on wav files if it doesn't allow for gapping. I don't know to what level Nero's PQ editing capabilities are.

I'm not saying that any particular program is NOT compliant, I'm just saying that it has a lot of hoops to jump through. Geez, at the very least, I'm quite surprised that compliant programs with PQ editing functions don't say something like:

THIS PROGRAM PERFORMS REDBOOK COMPLIANT P&Q EDITING FUNCTIONS in big giant bold type just to compete with obvious PQ editors such as WL & SCDA.

As far as being "pro enough by my standards" that's sort of a moot point. My standards have nothing to do with it. RedBook is RedBook. It either is or it isn't. You get an "A" or an "F" and there's really nowhere in between.

THAT BEING SAID - Certain RB rules are broken all the time without too much incident. Short tracks, CD-G and Orange Book, multimedia stuff, etc. That takes an entirely different kind of control, and I leave that to other sources. Most replication houses have the proper software to throw these together. I send them the audio PMCD and whatever the client wants as far as video or other content. They put it together using whatever they use. That's out of my hands.
 
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