what affects how we percieve panning?

[heatmiser]

Ok, probably a dumb question and not sure I can articulate it well enough, but here goes....Is there anything besides just moving the pan knob or fader all to the way to one side that can affect how far panned to one side a particular sound is perceived to be by the listener?

I'm thinking the gear makes a difference, no? I mean, when I had my old fostex 4 track tape deck, I'd pan all sorts of things far left and right, but in retrospect, it sounds kind of small and not that spread out.

I now have a digital portastudio where the panning is broken down into 63 units of measurement on both sides...I figured this just meant an increased ability to fine-tune, or it was like a spinal tap "this amp goes to 11" kind of thing, but really, when pushing something far left or right with this machine, it actually sounds much more spread out...that got me thinking - is there a set amount of panning that can be done, or is our perception of L/R entirely relative to the other sounds in the piece? Or, does certain gear or techinques enable one to pan sounds so that they appear more spread out then they would otherwise be?

I guess I just hear some recordings where certain sounds just seem to come out of left field in a cool way, and no amount of panning in my recordings give that same sense of space...I'm not talking about surround sound mixes or anything here. Again, sorry if this is a dumbass ?, but it's interesting to me...

 

[bouldersoundguy]

A fully panned signal is just fully attenuated in the opposite channel.

There are other factors. For instance, with your old analog multi-track recorder there may have been some crosstalk letting one channel bleed into the other, reducing the panning effect to some degree.

There are psycho-acoustic processes that have the effect of panning "beyond" the width of the speakers by sending subtle cues that our hearing interprets as real directionality.

Most professional mixing equipment has some sort of "pan law" designed into it. In a perfect room (or in headphones) a center-panned signal sums with 6dB of gain compared to the same signal with one side simply muted. In a less perfect room that drops to anywhere between 3dB and 4.5dB. So pan controls are designed with some amount of reduction at the center position to compensate and maintain a consistent perceived volume as the signal is panned. It's possible that your analog recorder had no or a lesser amount of center attenuation, so when you panned the signal sounded lower off to one side.

 

[heatmiser]

A fully panned signal is just fully attenuated in the opposite channel.

There are other factors. For instance, with your old analog multi-track recorder there may have been some crosstalk letting one channel bleed into the other, reducing the panning effect to some degree.

There are psycho-acoustic processes that have the effect of panning "beyond" the width of the speakers by sending subtle cues that our hearing interprets as real directionality.

Most professional mixing equipment has some sort of "pan law" designed into it. In a perfect room (or in headphones) a center-panned signal sums with 6dB of gain compared to the same signal with one side simply muted. In a less perfect room that drops to anywhere between 3dB and 4.5dB. So pan controls are designed with some amount of reduction at the center position to compensate and maintain a consistent perceived volume as the signal is panned. It's possible that your analog recorder had no or a lesser amount of center attenuation, so when you panned the signal sounded lower off to one side.

Interesting stuff...thanks. I'm thinking after reading your post that it is likely a combination of factors, the listening environment being one of them. I think the psycho acoustic propoerties are what I'm interested in...? Not sure.

The old fostex was just a possible example of how gear might be partly responsible. That thing was a POS and had so many known defects that I could not rule anything out in terms of its shortcomings. I guess I'm more comparing what I'm now capable of with some commercial recordings...there is still a percived distance in the width of the soundstage that I can't entirely account for.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I agree that center attenuation may have been an issue with his four track too, but I think he is talking about the distance that pro mix engineers can get. It can be difficult when you are starting out

I suspect that is mostly from reverb and delay. On a surround system you can also put some of a polarity inverted copy of a signal into the "off" side to move the image behind the listener.

 

[grimtraveller]

I'm thinking the gear makes a difference, no? I mean, when I had my old fostex 4 track tape deck, I'd pan all sorts of things far left and right, but in retrospect, it sounds kind of small and not that spread out.

I now have a digital portastudio where the panning is broken down into 63 units of measurement on both sides...I figured this just meant an increased ability to fine-tune, or it was like a spinal tap "this amp goes to 11" kind of thing, but really, when pushing something far left or right with this machine, it actually sounds much more spread out...

Not a daft query at all. I noticed the exact same thing. With my Tascam 488 portastudio, the hard pans, in fact all the pans, were noticeable but often subtle whereas with my Akai DPS12i digital portastudio, every tiny turn of the panning knobs feels like a lurch into another zone. It's definitely noticeable, more effective and when you switch from left to right or vice versa, it is smooth.....
I think there are differences between different recording machines, even though the physics theory says X should do this and Y should do that.

 

[heatmiser]

Yes there are other things that can effect your perception of left and right, and that is an excellent question!

First of all, using a four track or cheaper gear should Not effect pan. Unless the gear is improperly hooked up, or malfunctioning, panned 100% left means the sound comes from the left speaker only.

The thing you have realize is that "pan" is a linear, or 2 demensional effect. However, you mix in (or for) 3 demensional spaces. Reverb, EQ, and spacial effects can definately alter your sense of the degrees of Left and Right. For example, some mix engineers use reverb to push a sound "back" (or behind the speakers, so to speak) So when you said some instruments sound further left than you can get. Perhaps they sound further back? What do you think? Engineers also use EQ to push sounds up or down with high and low frequencies respectively.

So, if you begin to think of mixing as a 3 demensional art, it may change your perspective of pan. I know some mix engineers that will make stuff sound like it is coming from behind you. Trippy, huh?

Yes, I suppose panning can't be considered entirely separate from other dimensions, but the height and depth of sounds don't seem to be as mysterious to me as the L/R of it for some reason...

I think of reverb as having a centering effect actually. I agree that it tends to have the effect of pushing sounds "back", but if you think of a triangle with your two speakers being two points and the 3rd point being the source of the sound, the further you push the sound straight back, the further it would be perceived as being from either of the other two points (more centered between them). In my limited experience, drier sounds brought forward appear to be able to be placed further left or right on the stage.

What if I tried using verb, but boosted the same side of a stereo reverb as the direction in which I'm panning the signal? Maybe that would make it appear further back and also more spread out to that side?

 

[heatmiser]

Not a daft query at all. I noticed the exact same thing. With my Tascam 488 portastudio, the hard pans, in fact all the pans, were noticeable but often subtle whereas with my Akai DPS12i digital portastudio, every tiny turn of the panning knobs feels like a lurch into another zone. It's definitely noticeable, more effective and when you switch from left to right or vice versa, it is smooth.....
I think there are differences between different recording machines, even though the physics theory says X should do this and Y should do that.

Cool...yes, you experienced the same thing. It is exactly like the difference between "subtle" and "another zone". That is how I felt about the fostex vs. my roland, and that is how I now feel about the roland vs. some other recordings I've heard.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I think of reverb as having a centering effect actually. I agree that it tends to have the effect of pushing sounds "back", but if you think of a triangle with your two speakers being two points and the 3rd point being the source of the sound, the further you push the sound straight back, the further it would be perceived as being from either of the other two points (more centered between them). In my limited experience, drier sounds brought forward appear to be able to be placed further left or right on the stage.

What if I tried using verb, but boosted the same side of a stereo reverb as the direction in which I'm panning the signal? Maybe that would make it appear further back and also more spread out to that side?

Sounds right to me (heh). A stereo reverb return will have sound in both channels and tend to dilute the effect of panning the original signal.

There are all sorts of things you can do with reverb besides just returning it panned wide. You can narrow the panning, pan it with or against the original signal and apply dynamics processing to the send or return of a reverb.

 

[heatmiser]

Sounds right to me (heh). A stereo reverb return will have sound in both channels and tend to dilute the effect of panning the original signal.

There are all sorts of things you can do with reverb besides just returning it panned wide. You can narrow the panning, pan it with or against the original signal and apply dynamics processing to the send or return of a reverb.

Right, but with a stereo verb, couldn't you raise either the left or right level of the effect independantly? Maybe even mute the level of the effect on the side opposite of where you're panning the original signal? To sort of push the signal back and to one side?

I have never tried any of the other things you mention, although I've heard of them all. I should experiment more. There isn't much sophistication in my application of reverb at this stage. I just basically raise or lower the level of one that I like and drop it like a big echoing bomb on everything. I'm trying to get more discerning in my choices