what actually uses 192 khz?

  • Thread starter Thread starter dopey
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Heinrich Rudolf...lol
I was wondering if anyone knew the reason they chose those numbers? Why 44.1 and not 44.5 or 44.6? I know the whole Nyquist Theory, but that's a pretty random number to choose. And then after that we only go up about 4,000 to 48kHz??? THEN they decided to start doubling it? Hmmm...I'd like to know the history behind that.
 
Here's a short answer, and the page I found it on. I also want to check out the Massenberg speech....

ALIASING

if a 25 kHz waveform is sampled at 44.1 kHz (which has a Nyquist value of 22.05 kHz), the Nyquist rule is broken. 44 kHz - 25 kHz , results in a 19 kHz waveform which is heard as distortion. This is also known as 'foldover'


You can capture a 20 kHz simply by sampling at 40 kHz to satisfy Nyquist, plus 10% more for the guard band, plus 100 Hz to lock to video. 40 + 4(10%) + 100 Hz = 44.1.

"Now we have to build these anti-aliasing filters [low pass filter] to cleanly pass 20 kHz, but be out (-90 dB) by 22 kHz". So the extra 2k is the space needed to allow the filter to cut the signal to zero, and 44k avoids aliasing this data from 20-22k, the guard band.

" Truth is you can't dump that much level in that little frequency band without huge phase problems in the analog or digital domain. Therefore phase shift and high frequency ringing are common. 48K is smoother than 44k because of the extra headroom (10%). The problem with 48 k is it uses more media and is another standard"

some digital stuff
 
boingoman - thanks for that input. it helps clarify a few things. i studied this stuff a long time ago and i dont really have it fresh.


Im even thinking lately to stop doing 24 bit until i get another UAD1 and some more outboard compressors. By the time i get a few reverbs on there and one or 2 1176s on there and basic EQ, it takes it but it has the UAD1 at about 75% load. When i get working with 24-32 tracks it can get pretty complicated sometimes.

Although i do believe the 24bit is a big difference, so is getting the tracks and editting done that i need.

So basically its all dependent on the needs of the individual. Its not just a matter of putting in 96Khz converters because i affects basically everything else.

Danny
 
MadAudio said:
One of my co-workers is digitizing audio for the Save Our Sounds project. He's sampling at 96kHz.

By the way, the 'H' in "Hz" or "kHz" is capitalized because it's named after someone. Wanna guess his name?

mr heinz from heinz ketchup, or should i say 'catsup' ? :confused:

just kidding,
this is turning into a very nice little discussion, i appreciate all the brain power that is being used in this thread, thanks for sharing all your thoughts everyone! Since i still don't have the money saved up for the gear, I am still researching.... I did some rough takes on my friends audigy platinum today, and it came out pretty well, but nothing to do with what this discussion has headed into. I think my next step is to look into what kind of gear some professionals I admire use. The thing is that i like a lot older stuff, so i am sure they were using analouge.... AHHH this is all very interesting though, inspiring me to go open my physics book... :D
 
Yah its been a pretty good thread i think. I just wish someone a little more knowledgable then us would come here and clarify things and make sure there isnt anything wrong.

The stuff your favorite pros use will most likely be out of your budget, and yes, most likely analogue tape onto Otaris and Studers. Its not an easy thing unless your blessed with truck loads of money.

Danny
 
Danny, think about it... You don't hear a 440Hz tone? That's an a on the tuner! and you mix right? Don't you hear it when you eq on 80 Hz? Nothing subconscious about it. same with stuff form 15.000 to 20.000...

You can hear form 20 to 20.000 approx. Like it or not. Nothing to do with distance, no matter how often you repeat it LOL.

G.
 
First of all, 440Hz is not a sub frequency, its a bass frequency. And it is true, we hear very little of the sub frequencies, we can hear it, but it lacks definition. Instead we feel the definition of the sub frequencies.

The farther things have to travel, to more and more those higher frequencies amplify. They are much less audible in close micing because of that reason. That is also way reverb and room simulators normally cause the sound to sound more distant than big, and also why alot of engineers recommend a high cut filter so it isnt causing those high frequency harmonics. Maybe i shouldnt be mentioning so close as you cant hear those frequencies, but they arnt frequencies related to the actual definition of the sound.

Harvey, BlueBear, anyone? Can you come clear this place up? I am willing to except that i might be wrong on the subject, but this is what i remember learning over this long period of time. If i am wrong, i would also like to know so i can learn.

Danny
 
I see where you are going at, and it that you might be right, you are talking about the Doppler effect? anyway, I'm a biomedical scientist. I'm at least supposed to know about this stuff. :cool:
 
I dont think its as extreme as the doppler effect. Its just one of those minor things that your brain done. Like for example, if the sound is coming from behind you, your ears roll off the highs. That helps the brain know that the location of the sound is coming from the rear. Same goes for things below you and above you. If the sound is above you, the highs are rolled off while the things below you are kept normal. This makes sense because we normally arnt looking up in the sky but to the ground.

As for sub frequencies (below 100Hz) most of what you are hearing is actually what you are feeling. Thats why it takes big sub woofers with alot of watts to make you think that theres really bass there. Because just listening to the bass it is really dead and dry. I didnt mean that you cant hear those frequencies. While things travel through the air, i believe it is around these frequencies where it begins to boost in level. The longer it is in the air, the more these frequencies boost. But again i could be wrong and exactly where this starts.

And as far as high frequencies go, they are the most important frequencies for localization of sound. Like i said before, the main fundamental for the human hearing is around 1Khz. Frequencies in the 16Khz range are extremely high, and really like definition. Thats why they are used as more of a source of locolization than actual timbre and tone. Try it sometime, roll off everything about 16Khz. Youll notice that the actual timbre, pitch, and tone doesnt really change, but everything will sound a little more out in front. It might not always be the effect your looking for and masterers might involve a little more technique to it besides rolling off, but i notice that about 90% of professionally mastered work is rolled off right at 16Khz. It could be 90% because its the same with the music i like to listen to. There also could be other reasons like we talked about before why they cut off at 16Khz. Like poor filtering conversion up in those frequencies, which could also add to why things tighten up a bit when you cut them off. So that would be an advantage to using a higher sampling rate. But if its being put on CD, then the conversion back to 44.1 will have the same effect in the 16Khz range, and probably worse than y our converters would have done unless you are using a really nice sample converter. Understand what im saying? So basically, its probably best to keep everything at the medium it will be on in the end. Im guessing the same goes for 24 bit recording. If you are using a less than accurate ditherer, you could be doing more damage than good.

Its also ALWAYS good to do a lowcut on the final mix at 30Hz. Nothing below that is good and it will cause alot of mud and low end harmonics.

Anyway, hopefully that cleared things up.
 
Danny,

I now understand what you mean and i largerly agree. Neurocognition is my specialisation so i felt i had to react... LOL. ALthough i disagree with some specifics in your arguments i think i just misunderstood you the first time. I hope there are no hard feelings, best of luck.

G.
 
Heh no problem. I wasnt as clear before as i should have been. And it wont surprise me if im a little off on the details, but the basic ideas are there.

No hard feelings. :D
 
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