We've Got A New "King Of The Low End" LDC...

[kidvybes]

I guess I don't see the point in buying an MXL then spending more money to mod it when I can just as easily buy an Audio Technica that already sounds good and doesn't need any modification.

When I purchase a mic it's because I am knocked out by the sound. I would never purchase a mic where the sound was lackluster from the outset, only to throw more money at it via a mod. The other side of the coin is that most mods aren't all that great and do more for lining the pockets of the people selling the mods. This isn't to say that there aren't great mods out there. But it's pretty hard to turn a KIA into a Benz.

...hmmmm...well you haven't heard the mods I'm referring to...if you did, you wouldn't reference an Audio Technica...I've had a 4050, a 4060 and a 4047...they all went the way of eBay...good mics no doubt...these newer mods by JJ Audio and Michael Joly are more in the neighborhood of Neumann than AT...mics costing $300-800 (stock mic plus mod) that sound like $1000-3000 mics...

...BTW, Kia is part of Hyundai, the fastest growing car manufacturer in the world right now...the higher end Kias and Hyundais are giving Lexus, BMW and Mercedes fits right now...so yeah, you can turn a Kia into a Benz:

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/cgi-kia-k9-14460.html

 

[IMHO]

...these newer mods by JJ Audio and Michael Joly are more in the neighborhood of Neumann than AT...mics costing $300-800 (stock mic plus mod) that sound like $1000-3000 mics...

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/cgi-kia-k9-14460.html

Nobody is getting a ADK 67-au with a modded v67g, nobody is getting a u87 with a modded NT1-A, nobody is getting a Pearlman TM-1 with a modded MK-319. You have a much better mic, but to say it then sounds like a $3000 one, you would have to compare it to the crappy ones.

Then JJaudio is not even necessarily cheaper, most of his mics cost more than $1000. His mics have to compete many good stock mics that sound as expensive as it gets. Think ADK custom shop, Peluso, Gefell, Bock audio, Brauner, Lawson fets, some Neumann...

Some customers/fans seem to be bigger cheerleaders for the mods than the guys who are doing the mods. I am pretty sure Jim would be happy if we would consider his mics to be good alternatives to other good mics in the same price range. I don't think he would even dare saying he has created a Neumann m149 for $1200.

 

[kidvybes]

Then JJaudio is not even necessarily cheaper, most of his mics cost more than $1000. His mics have to compete many good stock mics that sound as expensive as it gets. Think ADK custom shop, Peluso, Gefell, Bock audio, Brauner, Lawson fets, some Neumann...

http://www.frontendaudio.com/SearchResults.asp?searching=Y&sort=5&brand=JJ Audio&show=10

I am pretty sure Jim would be happy if we would consider his mics to be good alternatives to other good mics in the same price range. I don't think he would even dare saying he has created a Neumann m149 for $1200.

...hmmmmmm...are we a bit out of the loop?...

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear...ts/458633-jj-audio-v67-mod-vs-neuman-u87.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear.../459329-jj-audio-v67-mod-vs-u87-part-2-a.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear...audio-akita-vs-vintage-u87-vs-sony-c800g.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear...cs-milkbone-mod-mxl-991-vs-neumann-kmi84.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/good-news-channel/464550-jj-audio-microphones-visits-studio-e.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/new-product-alert/459255-jj-audio-mics-v67-mod-u87-conversion.html

...nor is Michael Joly shy to compare:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear...ests/489728-mje-k47h-vs-u-47-u-67-u-87-a.html

http://www.oktavamodshop.com/product_info.php?products_id=139

http://www.oktavamodshop.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_46&products_id=147

http://www.oktavamodshop.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_46&products_id=145

...even "Philgood" here on HR.com, has been modding these mics for years and getting very impressive results (did you read his statement above?)

I wouldn't doubt it. I made modes to quite a few 2003 models, adding polypropylene and polycarbonate capacitors and installing K47 style capsules.

What I ended up with was beyond "usable" to down right "impressive". Mics that could easily be compared to a U87 or perhaps even a U67. I would even venture to say an U47fet if it weren't for the lack of a transformer.

...look, I'm not saying these mics will hold their "value" like a high-end brand will...they won't...what I am saying is that they WILL hold their own sonically in the studio with many of the same high-end mics you're mentioning...I'm not speaking from speculation...I'm speaking from experience with some of these modded mics alongside some very expensive "boutique" classics...you're welcome to disbelieve...I've got no dog in this fight...just passing on some info that may help someone else make an "informed choice" for their next mic purchase...hearing is believing...

 

[IMHO]

...hmmmmmm...are we a bit out of the loop?...

Being too much in the loop seems to lead to demagogy, from the builder to the cheerleaders! Don't worry, I have experience with mics, mods and loops.

It's really what it is all about, the loop. People like the idea to be in the loop, then they magnify what happens there. When will I be able to buy a car for $10 000 that looks and drives like a ferrari, can you direct me to the right loop?

I've owned a modded MK-319, and it is not rich, not musical, doesn't sound expensive. Even modded, I wouldn't consider this mic to worth more than $350. I've heard the v67g modded by Oktavamod, in no freaking way it could even be remotely compared to my ADK 67-au, not even in the ballpark. I've heard the samples Oktavamod offered of the NT1-A that is supposed to sound like a u-87...well... lets leave it there!

I don't like to waste my money, but I am after very musical mics that have a rich, expensive sound and I can only find these for around $1000-2000 stock, that could maybe include a JJaudio mic or Oktavamod that sells for about that much, but in no way for a total investment of $500 including mods; I know better than that now.

I know that what I'm saying probably violates a code of the loop or something informal similar to that, but I'm not interested in joining a loop anytime soon ... but maybe for that ferrari at $10 000...

 

[PhilGood]

Being too much in the loop seems to lead to demagogy, from the builder to the cheerleaders! Don't worry, I have experience with mics, mods and loops.

It's really what it is all about, the loop. People like the idea to be in the loop, then they magnify what happens there. When will I be able to buy a car for $10 000 that looks and drives like a ferrari, can you direct me to the right loop?

I've owned a modded MK-319, and it is not rich, not musical, doesn't sound expensive. Even modded, I wouldn't consider this mic to worth more than $350. I've heard the v67g modded by Oktavamod, in no freaking way it could even be remotely compared to my ADK 67-au, not even in the ballpark. I've heard the samples Oktavamod offered of the NT1-A that is supposed to sound like a u-87...well... lets leave it there!

I don't like to waste my money, but I am after very musical mics that have a rich, expensive sound and I can only find these for around $1000-2000 stock, that could maybe include a JJaudio mic or Oktavamod that sells for about that much, but in no way for a total investment of $500 including mods; I know better than that now.

I know that what I'm saying probably violates a code of the loop or something informal similar to that, but I'm not interested in joining a loop anytime soon ... but maybe for that ferrari at $10 000...

Sounds to me that you're the type where if you look for something to like about a product, you'll find it. Likewise, if you look for something to dislike in a product...you'll find it.

I'd have to say from my experience, you can take a mod only so far without having to replace things that are the very heart of the microphone. By the time you're done its a completely different microphone. I don't really mod mics anymore (unless I've found one I really like and know it could be better). I've taken to just buying a mic for the body and then completely building an entirely new mic in the shell. They key thing is the right parts. Good capsules, good tubes, caps, transformers, right voltages and bias, etc. I own some very expensive mics and the ones I build myself are every bit as good, IMHO.

The value in modding a mic really only comes if the person who owns it can do it themselves. Then its cheap, because you're just paying for a few things and not a service someone else provides. The only time paying someone to do the mod for you is if they really know what they're doing and can deliver a boutique sound for a reasonable cost. It can be done, though.

What do you think ADK is doing in the custom shop? They're modding their 797 built microphones, which are pretty good to start with. They upgrade the capacitors and put in a high tolerance, QA'd capsule. Not much to it. Did you know the original Nady TCM1100 is the same mic as the ADK TC, just a slightly different shell? So, you can take a $200 mic, throw in a well made capsule, adjust a few caps and you've got the same thing as an ADK custom shop mic. No loop.

I've built an Ela M 251 style mic (actually my 5th version) that uses a Tim Campbell CT12 capsule, has the right dimensions and grill mesh & layers, right circuit and uses a Soundelux power supply. Does it sound like a real Ela M 251? ...Yes. Not exact, but every bit as wonderfully sounding. Its got the mojo!

So for what I paid in parts and my own labor vs. shelling out $18,000 for the real deal, was it worth it?

Absolutely!

 

[MichaelJoly]

...I've heard the samples Oktavamod offered of the NT1-A that is supposed to sound like a u-87...well... lets leave it there!...

That would be the samples where 329 Gearslutz members chose the mod'd NT1a 53% of the time thinking it was the U 87 - samples demonstrating the value that has made the mod'd NT1a the fastest-selling OktavaMod of the past five years. And those were the samples that attracted almost 27,000 page views to a Gearslutz thread and sparked over 300 discussion posts.

No "insider loop" driving sales, posts or page views - just documented results folks can hear for themselves online - and then experience in their own studios post-mod. A few hundred of their unsolicited comments can be read here.

About five years ago, the question "why mod a mic when you can buy an AT whatever?" was heard once in a while. But now with over 3000 satisfied clients speaking to how OktavaMod offers great sound and is an excellent value, its rare to see this question come up. But its welcome...

...because whenever the question of mic modification value comes up on the forums there's a correlated pulse of OktavaMod-Shop traffic and sales.

 

[IMHO]

... whenever the question of mic modification value comes up on the forums there's a correlated pulse of OktavaModShop traffic and sales.

I don't mind you selling more.

I just think people are exaggerating the value of what you come up with, and so do you. Do you think your v67g mod can compare to a hamburg 67-au, that your NT1-A could really replace the real thing u87, that the MK-319 is showing the richness and musicality of a 2247 or TM-1? If some customers declare this themselves, I understand you won't complain, but it has to be rectified somehow.

Don't give me wrong, I do consider there are not enough mics out there priced between $600-800 and you guys are offering just that; it used to be $500 or the next best is $1200.

Now the opportunity is good, but the claims are in great part false, going from a $400-500 investment to the sound of a good $1200 mic, some claim $3000, is asking for more than a leap of faith, I have actually never heard that mic.

Don't worry about some critics Michael, don't acknowledge anything, you could probably tell your cheerleaders they should put your capsule in their toaster to increase warmth and they would do just that, now it worths $2000.

 

[drBill]

IMHO - I can't comment on the JJ mics, as I have not had the opportnity to try them. But I HAVE had the opportunity to try MOST of MJoly's modded mics.

And I didn't listen to them in a vacuum with no experience in vintage mics or classics to compare against.

I didn't stack the deck and listen to them against mid line mics like ADK, AT, etc..

I took them to argueably the oldest and most prestigious studio in Hollywood and put them up against their slew of classic mics that have been heard on dozens of unforgettable records throughout the last 50+ years. Michael encouraged me to do this. He TRULY believes in his microphones. And so I did. (See below) And I brought in talent that could (WOULD) push the mics right to the edge - enter Oren Waters. (He's sung on HUNDREDS of gold records - literally.) It was a BLAST and I learned MUCH about comparing modern mics to the classics. I put Michael's mics up against (among others) :

U67, U48, U87, M249, C12a, 44BX, 77DX, etc.

I can tell you without a doubt that Michael's mics absolutely hold their own, if not excell against the classics.

Enough that I ordered a 1050, a pair of K47H's, a pair of 012's, and some ribbon mics. (I already have MJ's 219's and 205's).

The 1050 will stand shoulder to shoulder with a GREAT U47/48. Cost? $225 for the mic, and $350 for the mod. Should be under $600 all in. And I'll put it up against any of the said studio's U48's - any day of the week with any vocalist. It will EASILY stand shoulder to shoulder. No, it doesn't sound EXACTLY the same. maybe it will in 50 years after it's greasy and burned in, but it is every bit the equal, and together, they sound like 2 mics of the same model - slightly different, yet undeniably the same.

You can hear clips from the session if you like. They are around. On GS and on Oktavamod's site.

Sounds like you had a bad experience at some point. Sorry for that. But you really should reconsider. If not, no problem with me, but you are missing out. I've got dozens of vintage Neumann's, Gefell's, AKG's and Sennheisers. And I just ordered a $#!%load of MJ mics. Paid "list price" and was thrilled at the quality and bargain.

For your enjoyment, if you're like me, you'll like this. Here's some mic shootout pics for you :

Oren Waters kickin it HARD....

Robert Fernandez (scoring engineer) listening with Bill. He picked the MJ 1050 and U48 as his favorites - over the U67, u87, M249, C12a, etc.

I've got to say that my experience with modded mics matches Phil's. Most of these mics are pretty much rebuilt from the ground up, and with meticulous hand holding, they are far and away above the "average" mid-line mics in the $1k-2.5k range.

 

[PhilGood]

I don't mind you selling more.

I just think people are exaggerating the value of what you come up with, and so do you. Do you think your v67g mod can compare to a hamburg 67-au, that your NT1-A could really replace the real thing u87, that the MK-319 is showing the richness and musicality of a 2247 or TM-1? If some customers declare this themselves, I understand you won't complain, but it has to be rectified somehow.

Don't give me wrong, I do consider there are not enough mics out there priced between $600-800 and you guys are offering just that; it used to be $500 or the next best is $1200.

Now the opportunity is good, but the claims are in great part false, going from a $400-500 investment to the sound of a good $1200 mic, some claim $3000, is asking for more than a leap of faith, I have actually never heard that mic.

Don't worry about some critics Michael, don't acknowledge anything, you could probably tell your cheerleaders they should put your capsule in their toaster to increase warmth and they would do just that, now it worths $2000.

So believe what you want to believe.

No one's got a gun to your head.




BTW, sounds like you're really in love with the Hamburg 67au!...What a great mic...that...no one has heard of...or... uses to great extent.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I understand your very worried about your investment. Its important that the money you shelled out can't be equaled.

Makes perfect sense!


I understand!...BE the skeptic! ....BE the criticism!! Do that thing you do! Its good for us!

After all, for it to mean something all us folks here at HR, we would have to respect and value your opinion. Since we barely know you, and now care even less who you are, your opinion means precisely squat and will be taken with all due credit that it deserves, which is right now "0"! When you can prove you're someone with the technical knowledge to back up your assertions, I may yield to your vast and overwhelming experience and knowledge. Until then, you're obviously just some knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing troll who came in here to stir something up.

I have absolutely no respect for that. I've worked very hard and I know what I know. So I challenge you to put up or shut up.

 

[drBill]

IMHO -

FYI, in case you think I'm just blowing hot air, here's 3 mics from the shootout. All mics are in pristine shape. Into the Neve's onboard mic pre's, into PTHD 192 @ 24b/44.1k - no EQ, Compression, Plug-Ins.

A MJ 1050 ($600)
A Neumann U48 ($10,000+)
A Neumann U67 ($6500+)

Feel free to let us know which one you like. Or which you don't. For your scrutiny - WAV files. Feel free to download and put into your DAW for critical listening.

Mic1

Mic2

Mic3

 

[mshilarious]

I don't have idea how to do a five LDC "shootout", but I think as a control I'd like to see five of the same mic in that configuration--some of those capsules are displaced by what looks like six inches, which is a significant fraction of the source-to-mic distance.

 

[Absolutepower]

I'm pretty sure the 1st one is the 1050. 2 is the 67, and 3 is the 48.

 

[sound125]

BTW, Kia is part of Hyundai, the fastest growing car manufacturer in the world right now...the higher end Kias and Hyundais are giving Lexus, BMW and Mercedes fits right now...so yeah, you can turn a Kia into a Benz:

I've driven Hundai and KIA rentals and I would never want to own either one. The parts, handling, quality and performance don't even compare to a luxurious BMW, Benz or a Lexus. In short, you can't turn a Kia into a Benz anymore than you can turn a MXL into M149. That's why the standard among REs and studios is to purchase high end mics, instead of chasing budget sound turds and trying to mod them.

I recommend Audio Technica mics because they have consistently produced mics that sound warm without the harsh upper mids that's common to most budget mics. The next level up is Beyerdynamic. Both the MCE 83 and MC 930 are exceptional lessons in warmth, sweet midrange and smooth highs. You don't need to mod a great sounding mic.

 

[mshilarious]

I wish somebody would mod my BMW MINI into a car with a working AC

 

[sound125]

I wish somebody would mod my BMW MINI into a car with a working AC

You can always trade it in for a KIA.

 

[Marik]

Neither I nor Jim Williams use this FET in our mods - we each prefer alternate FETs that present less capacitive loading to the capsule and are less "congested" (as Jim puts it) or "snappier" (as I put it) than the K170.

Michael,

That's because clearly, neither you nor Jim Williams ever bothered to look at the K170 data sheet and use it the right way--something I suggested many moons ago. As I many times pointed out, that device is widely misused. Also (again, as I many times pointed out), the capacitive load is not necessary a bad thing.

The reason I am noticing it every time is that in my mods I use the K170 (special version and of course, in the right conditions) and find it by far superior device. On the other hand, I feel your constant bashing on different boards undermines and diminishes my work and gives many folks wrong message as if I am using wrong or bad device. Clearly, this is not about the device, this is about knowledge and implementation.

As always, I don't expect you to reply (for some reason you always chose to ignore my remarks), but on the other hand, I am quite puzzled with your attitude. Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion, or personal preferences, however, spreading wrong information (that includes long/short ribbon microphones, you promised to fix over a year ago...), if anything else, just does not look professional.

Thank you for your attention to that matter,

Mark Fouxman
Samar Audio & Microphone Design

 

[drBill]

I don't have idea how to do a five LDC "shootout", but I think as a control I'd like to see five of the same mic in that configuration--some of those capsules are displaced by what looks like six inches, which is a significant fraction of the source-to-mic distance.

I would say probably 4 inches.

As you well know, there's no PERFECT way to test mics. Either you're doing seperate takes, or a bunch of mics in ONE take. I chose the latter. Neither is without it's "issues". Of that I'll freely admit. After doing a huge amount of shootouts, I'm acutely aware that there is no perfect way, and that someone is going to slam you for whichever methodology you chose. BTW, your "control" idea is interesting.

We live in an imperfect world, and I wanted to hear Michael's mics against the best mics I could easily get my hands on in one sitting. Ultimately, it takes a few weeks of living with it to know if it truly "fits" you or if it's just infatuation. Trying my best, I tried to keep Oren "in place" and quite a ways back so that the "sweet spot" was larger, but he's a "feel" singer, and is all over the place.

Generally, most singers sing for the money going straight towards those old vintage mics. It is what it is. That tends to give them an unfair advantage as the singer pulls in to them, but in the interest of the best comparison possible, I RMS analyzed each take and matched levels as best as possible.

Unfortunately, as you mentioned, it's impossible to have a perfectly "scientific" test as singers are not robots. However, for me, it was easy and really enlightening to have a "creative" test such as this one. In doing it, I garnered a lot of insight immediately. Some expected. Some not so expected. Life is a compromise. I had to just deal with it. But, although not perfect, it gave me an absolute vision of whether I needed to pop out another $15-25,000k for vintage vocal mics or not.

So, did you listen, and do you have any thoughts? Care to guess what is what, or even comment on which you like or don't like?

I'm pretty sure the 1st one is the 1050. 2 is the 67, and 3 is the 48.

After IMHO gets to give his/her thoughts, and after a few more people listen, I'll reveal what is what. But thanks for laying it on the line and making your thoughts public. I suspect there will be some surprised "experts". I know I was surprised.

 

[Absolutepower]

After IMHO gets to give his/her thoughts, and after a few more people listen, I'll reveal what is what. But thanks for laying it on the line and making your thoughts public. I suspect there will be some surprised "experts". I know I was surprised.

Thank you for posting this, it gives us commoners a chance to actually get some perspective on gear we wouldn't have access to. Also, sure its not going to be a perfect test but, its a lot better than nothing. Also, I'm definitely not claiming to be an expert on mics. I am just a home recorder making basic demos, far from an expert.

 

[thebigcheese]

I've heard from guys at work that the v88 is very similar to the Neumann TLM series of mics--that you would be hard pressed to tell the difference in a shootout. I don't know if any of you have tried that mic (I haven't), but it's definitely interesting to see that they are giving the more expensive brands a run for their money.

 

[mshilarious]

I would say probably 4 inches.

As you well know, there's no PERFECT way to test mics. Either you're doing seperate takes, or a bunch of mics in ONE take. I chose the latter. Neither is without it's "issues". Of that I'll freely admit. After doing a huge amount of shootouts, I'm acutely aware that there is no perfect way, and that someone is going to slam you for whichever methodology you chose. BTW, your "control" idea is interesting.

We live in an imperfect world, and I wanted to hear Michael's mics against the best mics I could easily get my hands on in one sitting. Ultimately, it takes a few weeks of living with it to know if it truly "fits" you or if it's just infatuation. Trying my best, I tried to keep Oren "in place" and quite a ways back so that the "sweet spot" was larger, but he's a "feel" singer, and is all over the place.

Yeah, singing is a nearly impossible test, but that's what everybody wants to hear. Piano or organ would be easier, they can be controlled with MIDI and come much closer to reproducing a performance.

Another control idea is to do a couple of takes and swap the mic positions (five takes if you're really crazy, but the listeners would probably go insane).

So, did you listen, and do you have any thoughts? Care to guess what is what, or even comment on which you like or don't like?

I didn't listen, and I don't think I'd have any idea which is which. I am very good at spotting differences and even better at analyzing them, but unless one mic stunk bad (which I doubt), then it's down to preference.

I've only owned a handful of LDCs and now I'm down to one (this is because I can play several instruments, but I can't sing). I sold my KSM44 to a guy who also has a U87ai. He says he likes the KSM44 almost as much as the U87ai (but not quite). I could stipulate the modders' arguments in this thread and assume they are in between those two, and that wouldn't be enough of a difference to matter to me--because I liked my AT3060 better, which most people don't like at all (including my friend).

I'll be more interested when a modder does a custom mic and says that it's flat-out better than any U47 ever was