We're building an In-Ear Monitor rack for our live shows... mixing and FOH sends?

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Bryan316

Bryan316

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Okay. Four singers in the band, lots of harmonies, lots of detail in the songs. Sick of bad monitors. Sick of bad stage acoustics. We want to up our game, and sing as professionally as the rest of our performance. So we're starting the process of building a rack with everything jammed into it.

We want to start with one transmitter, and three receivers. Our keyboardist doesn't need to go wireless, we can feed him a cable to his stands. So we'll be happy enough to start with just vocals in the in-ears, and just a stereo mix of everything together, just like our PA speakers in the practice room. Eventually, we'll add two more transmitters so each of us gets our own channel, with individualized mixes. Then we can add our own instruments and let everyone blend what they need for their own tastes.

To start, we wanted to use a single 4-channel mixer, and just feed it to one transmitter. I personally want to plan ahead, and invest. Why buy something, and then have to replace it a year later? So I want to find a rack mounted mini mixer that can take four vocals, two guitars and bass, three keyboards and an ambient stage mic. So a 12 channel mixer would be perfect. I found the Alesis MultiMix 12R, which should do very nicely, or the Behriner EuroRack Pro RX1202FX. Compact, enough inputs. Problem is, not enough Aux Outs to get us 4 separate feeds, unless I can finagle two transmitter channels as Main Outs, and the other two transmitter channels as the Aux Outs. So I may end up using my Alesis Studio32 and top-rack it, which gives me plenty of Aux Outs and still keep our Mains available.

Here's the primary question.

If we get to a venue and roll this box in, and tell the sound man we're going to run the mics into our box to give ourselves our in-ears, what's the most practical and time-crucial way to split the signal and give him his individual channels? My board has channel inserts, I think I can use that? Would maybe need 1/4" TRS to XLR balanced outs, to plug his mic cables into?

Anyone seen or tried or currently use any tricks like this?
 
I see a some problems with your plan.

First is using one mix for multiple singers. Each singer needs his own voice louder than everything else to hear it clearly. You can't do that for four singers at once in one mix (which is probably much of your problem with wedges). A stereo mix can help make things more distinct with panning, but singers' needs may still conflict too much for one mix.

Second is giving the house line level signal that comes from you mixer. They are used to getting mic level signal that isn't dependent on your mic preamps. You need to provide an XLR mic-level split for all the mic cables so the house gets what they are used to.

Third is that you need to provide the full mic/DI package and set up your monitor mixes in your rehearsal space for quick and consistent setup at the gig. If you use various house mics you'll be spending a bunch of sound check time twiddling levels and eq on your monitor board. If you use SM58s on vocals you may often be able to leave your mics in the case and use commonly available house provided SM58s without having to make adjustments on your board.

Fourth is the mixer. You're going to need that Alesis 32 to do it even close to right. You may have to get 16 1/4" jumpers to connect the Tape Outs to the Tape Ins to get all the auxes working. And you can keep the main faders free for those times when you need to do the house mix from stage. If you want to take it up a notch look into the Allen & Heath Wiz3 16:2 that has four pre-fader auxes and two post-fader auxes for four monitor mixes and two effects sends while your main mix is still available. To get really serious there are monitor-specific rackmount mixers with XLR splits built right in like the APB ProRack Monitor.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
I see a some problems with your plan.

First is using one mix for multiple singers. Each singer needs his own voice louder than everything else to hear it clearly. You can't do that for four singers at once in one mix (which is probably much of your problem with wedges). A stereo mix can help make things more distinct with panning, but singers' needs may still conflict too much for one mix.
Click to expand...

Luckily the ones we're looking at so far have stereo inputs. We could at least get two voices in one ear, and two voices in the other ear, until we can afford individual transmitters for everyone.



Second is giving the house line level signal that comes from you mixer. They are used to getting mic level signal that isn't dependent on your mic preamps. You need to provide an XLR mic-level split for all the mic cables so the house gets what they are used to.
Click to expand...

My most glaring and painful concern.



Third is that you need to provide the full mic/DI package and set up your monitor mixes in your rehearsal space for quick and consistent setup at the gig. If you use various house mics you'll be spending a bunch of sound check time twiddling levels and eq on your monitor board. If you use SM58s on vocals you may often be able to leave your mics in the case and use commonly available house provided SM58s without having to make adjustments on your board.
Click to expand...

We planned on getting four mics, with four 40ft mic cables, heatshrinking the mics to the cables, and writing our names on them, so we always have enough mics, and then take the stage's mic cables to plug into our box. We should be using this setup at every band practice, so we get used to them, can alwaysn fine tune them, and get them exactly where we want them. Also, so everyone on the band knows how it works, so we all can fix it if something goes wrong!



Fourth is the mixer. You're going to need that Alesis 32 to do it even close to right. You may have to get 16 1/4" jumpers to connect the Tape Outs to the Tape Ins to get all the auxes working. And you can keep the main faders free for those times when you need to do the house mix from stage. If you want to take it up a notch look into the Allen & Heath Wiz3 16:2 that has four pre-fader auxes and two post-fader auxes for four monitor mixes and two effects sends while your main mix is still available. To get really serious there are monitor-specific rackmount mixers with XLR splits built right in like the APB ProRack Monitor.
Click to expand...



THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF RECOMMENDATION WE NEEDED!!! A Passive mic splitter BUILT IN!!! Hell yeah! Do they make passive splitter boxes as separate units that I could add to my mixer???
 
Okay.... so far, we're thinking the Shure P2TR215CL System, and an ART S8 mic splitter. Lets me get 8 inputs split so the sound guy can be happy. We'd be doing 4 vocals, 3 amp mics, and keys, since my keyboardist mixes his keys and sends a single output anyway.

Then we're looking at the Behringer Eurorack Pro RX1202FX for our mixer, which lets us bring in our 8 post-split channels, and still give us two more channels for a stage ambient mic and our MP3 player or click track generator. Also found the Alesis MultiMix 12R, which seems to be the same design, gotta check the specs and output channels to be certain.

So.... $600 for an initial Shure whole system, then $320 each for two more receivers, $200 for the splitter, and $220-$300 for the mixer.

$1740 total complete upgrade.


Wow.
 
Bryan316 said:
Luckily the ones we're looking at so far have stereo inputs. We could at least get two voices in one ear, and two voices in the other ear, until we can afford individual transmitters for everyone.
Click to expand...

You could spread them out in the stereo field to match how you are all arranged on stage. The guy on stage right would be in the right ear, the guy center stage would be in the center of the stereo image.
 
Allright, bought one Shure PSM 200 system new in box, with a $100 off coupon code emailed to me Saturday morning, heh heh... and one used system for just above half the regular price! A singer came in and bought the unit, went straight to the gig, pulled it out of the box, couldn't get it to work, and exchanged it for another system. She had the receiver on a different channel than the transmitter was on! HAH! So I'm gonna replace the earbud tips and hydrogen peroxide the earbuds, and save me $300! Hell yeah.

I have my PA box with the Alesis mixer, gonna spend tonight pulling out the extra components and start rewiring stuff. My only concern is ordering the mic splitter box and getting it shipped in time.
 
THIS kind of thread is Homerecording.com at it's best!
 
You may not need anything as fancy as a transformer split like the S8. It's pretty rare that a simple Y split with ground lifts on one output won't do the trick. I use a split snake (stage box with two tails) that's simply hardwired with ground lifts. If you're handy with a soldering iron you could order some rack panels, panel mount XLRs and switches and build your own. It will probably sound better than going through 8 cheap transformers.
 
Even cheap transformers are better than a Y cable that can affect the impedance of a signal. Also, this allows me to expand, when we're ready for having everything on stage all going through to our in-ears. Yes, Y-splitter cables are cheaper, but having a rack setup with a P-Touch labeler to label every in and out clearly and everything organized, will be easier and faster than a bunch of dangling Y cables. I can then run the splitter box up with 90-degree XLR connectors, to make my mixer's connections clean and spaghetti-free.

And I definitely want to avoid lifting the grounds on any gear, because I'm sick of getting zapped on the lips by microphones with invalid grounds.


Well... that's my deformed, drunk opinions on why we're doing things this way. Heh heh.
 
Bryan316 said:
Even cheap transformers are better than a Y cable that can affect the impedance of a signal. Also, this allows me to expand, when we're ready for having everything on stage all going through to our in-ears. Yes, Y-splitter cables are cheaper, but having a rack setup with a P-Touch labeler to label every in and out clearly and everything organized, will be easier and faster than a bunch of dangling Y cables. I can then run the splitter box up with 90-degree XLR connectors, to make my mixer's connections clean and spaghetti-free.

And I definitely want to avoid lifting the grounds on any gear, because I'm sick of getting zapped on the lips by microphones with invalid grounds.


Well... that's my deformed, drunk opinions on why we're doing things this way. Heh heh.
Click to expand...

The ground only lifts one side, to break signal ground loops. Mics would still be grounded to your mixer. If you got zapped I would suspect power issues before signal ground lifting.

The splits would all be built into a rack panel, not a bunch of dangling Y-cables. You could make one panel with all inputs and outputs for the back of your rack to keep the front cable-free.

Most mics have no problem split to two preamps. Probably some do. I wouldn't be too concerned but I'd be prepared to swap out a mic if something seemed weird.

That said, the ART unit would probably do a pretty good job and it's more convenient than soldering one up.
 
OMG, this thread is threatening to deteriorate into a pissing match. Please, for the love of all that is holy, DON'T DO THAT!
 
Not a pissing match. I have no interest in proving myself or trolling or any of that shit, I only want to know valid reasons why or why not to try something. And if one of my ideas or opinions are wrong, so be it! Got no problem finding out I'm wrong, as long as I learn what's right.

Already, this thread is a HUGE chunk of learning for me. For that, I'm already grateful. But if there's more for me to learn, I'm all ears.
 
As for the zapping mics, if I'm using my wireless bass, I'm okay. But if I'm using a cable in the band room, our current mini-PA Yamaha powered mixer zaps me. Dunno if it's really the mic, because it's the same mic I use at every gig, and don't get zapped.

I blame the BEAT TO HELL AND BACK AGAIN ancient Yamaha mixer.
 
stevieb said:
OMG, this thread is threatening to deteriorate into a pissing match. Please, for the love of all that is holy, DON'T DO THAT!
Click to expand...

what in the world are you talking about?
They're just having a back and forth discussion about the OPs plans.
 
Bryan316 said:
As for the zapping mics, if I'm using my wireless bass, I'm okay. But if I'm using a cable in the band room, our current mini-PA Yamaha powered mixer zaps me. Dunno if it's really the mic, because it's the same mic I use at every gig, and don't get zapped.

I blame the BEAT TO HELL AND BACK AGAIN ancient Yamaha mixer.
Click to expand...
well it's NOT the mic. Grounding issues of one kind or another are always the cause of zapping. The mic cable just brings it to you but the cause and source of the zapping is always at the other end of the cable.
You a guitar player when you get zapped in your band room?
If so ..... are your amp and the little pa head plugged into the same outlet/power strip?
If not ....... try that and see if it helps.
 
Yes, be sure it's all on the same circuit, or on circuits sharing the same ground. Also look for any "cheater" plugs or power cords with grounds clipped and correct them. Vintage tube amps with unpolarized/ungrounded two-prong plugs should be updated to grounded power.
 
Lt. Bob said:
well it's NOT the mic. Grounding issues of one kind or another are always the cause of zapping. The mic cable just brings it to you but the cause and source of the zapping is always at the other end of the cable.
You a guitar player when you get zapped in your band room?
If so ..... are your amp and the little pa head plugged into the same outlet/power strip?
If not ....... try that and see if it helps.
Click to expand...

My bass rig has all good grounding. But this PA head has been to hell and back, and I've never tested it.

My rig is plugged into another outlet further away on the same wall, but both units are on the same wall circuit. It zaps me whether I use different mic cables, so I suspect either that channel's shielding/grounding on that PA is shot, or that whole PA box is junk for shielding and grounding. I'll bring my multimeter and outlet tester over there tonight and check both these wall outlets first, then test that PA to find where the grounding is broken. For now, a big red clown nose foam windscreen works.


By the way guys.... if you buy used gear, make sure the SCREWS are included. Can't rack up these transmitters, because it needs ALL the screws from BOTH transmitters, to mount them together to each other, and then mount the rack ears onto them. Gotta stop at Fastenal and try to find these itty bitty #4 machine screws. Bah humbug.

At least my Alesis board and SKB Gig Rig are ready once I get the screws. First full band test tonight!
 
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