Web Site Development - Help

  • Thread starter Thread starter DigitalDon
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Ripping code?

Ripping code and ripping someone elses song ? Interesting analogy.

Songwriters often take another writer's chord structure, or a copy a riff and adapt it, or an arrangment, parts of a melody, etc. either deliberately or subconsciously. NOTHING in popular music is 100% original, it is all drawn from some things that went before hopefully with a little spark of originality thrown in.

With HTML code it's very similar. So if I see a nice piece of 'code' (some have already argued its not code anyway) used in a site which could be used on my site then what do I do? Look at it and start to type out every dot and commar myself or just copy it into notepad? Others may have time to type it all out, I don't! In order to copy code and adapt it your own purposes you have to first understand HTML in any case so copying just saves time. In any case some sites offer code to do certain jobs which you are invited to copy, it just saves time - I place a link to these sources on my site.

It's not the bits and pieces of copied code that are important, it is how you assemble them into something 'original' that matters. Just like song writing, taking a song chord pattern from a well known song and making it something of your own, so no-one recognises where it came from. I'm not saying anything terrible here, many great song writers do this.

We're all magpies...... as someone else once said!
 
I remember when I actyally did write all the HTML "by hand". Of course once you learn it well, you learn to be faster and use dufferent shortcuts (ie. templates). I am not saying going to dynamic drive is a bad thing, I use their scripts a lot, but simply copying an entire source code and inserting your band's name is pretty lame. I've done this before simply just to do it (i used to make sites when i was bored), and it actually will take you longer than if you just started from scratch. Laziness is no excuse to steal someone else's work, just as the price of CD's nowadays is no excuse to download music for free (yes that is stealong) and the high priced cable is no excuse to climb the telephone poll and wire it up for free.
 
Stealing HTML code from a web site is no different then someone stealing your music!
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What a silly idea! You wouldn't expect people to not use the same alphabet because someone else used it? Or make up their own punctuation marks?

Or, to use the song analogy, you use the same twelve notes and the same diatonic chords and common rhythms for certain feels -- does that constitute ripping someone off? Hardly...

HTML is not some sort of creative work of art, it's freakin' markup -- it's code that tells the browser how to display something. One can learn from looking at another page just like you can learn from reading books how to construct coherent sentences. There are no creative algorithms there that someone can steal like there might be in programming code.

Now if you copy someone's graphical design and site layout slavishly, so that it looks the same, and say that you "designed" it, well, maybe you have a point...
 
Ive been doing HTML since the early 90's. In the beginning, the source code isn't really a code. Its an open arcitecture programming language much like Linux. Ive done corporate web pages as well as cheeso ugly fests over the last 10 years, it all depends on what the site is for. There are restrictions to taking specific types of programs for your own use, mainly java type stuff. That could hae changed though.
While at one times I was very proficient in HTML, I have tried to make things more simple. My recent homepage unfortunately locks me into prefabbed Trellix templates which suck bad. In November Ill have a new one hosted in a nice place with downloadable and emailable Terms of Agreements as well as internet invoicing and maybe even free powerpoint tracking sheets. HTML is a freeform art, to be borrowed from, expanded upon and shared internationally. You can tradmark images and names, but not any particular ordering of any alphabet.

SoMm
 
There is a difference between looking at the code to see how a certain effect was achieved, such as links changing colors on mouseovers, etc.

But that is totally DIFFERENT than copying the whole sites layout (very bad), or even images (horrible).

Can you copy a layout, or can that be copyrighted?
 
Not page layout

I see many pages for bands with very similar layouts. Nothing wrong with that. I would guess you can't copright a layout, but if you could prove someone took your code and simply inserted their own band name keeping everything else the same then you'd be onto something.

When I spoke of copying code it was simply to get a framework in place, a starting point, it's then up to you to alter it change the colours, insert new text and graphic images and make it your own.

The analogy I'd use is taking a house which someone else has built then you come along and decorate it & customise it, maybe adding an extension, or knocking down a wall, etc. to your own tastes so it's completely different to anyone else's house, rather than starting from scratch brick by brick from the bare earth!

I don't copy grafix or pictures, the grafix I use are 'freeware'.

My concsience is clear, in that i have not taken bread out of anyone else's mouth! Unlike music piracy which does that, but then their (record company) mouths have been stuffed full for so long a little diet wouldn't do them any harm!!
 
In the beginning, the source code isn't really a code. Its an open architecture programming language much like Linux.
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What are you talking about? HTML is a markup language. There is no "source code" for a markup language. It's a standard, but that isn't the same as "open source" (again, so source to be open). It's nothing remotely like Linux.
 
AlChuck said:
What a silly idea! You wouldn't expect people to not use the same alphabet because someone else used it? Or make up their own punctuation marks?

Or, to use the song analogy, you use the same twelve notes and the same diatonic chords and common rhythms for certain feels -- does that constitute ripping someone off? Hardly...

HTML is not some sort of creative work of art, it's freakin' markup -- it's code that tells the browser how to display something. One can learn from looking at another page just like you can learn from reading books how to construct coherent sentences. There are no creative algorithms there that someone can steal like there might be in programming code.

Now if you copy someone's graphical design and site layout slavishly, so that it looks the same, and say that you "designed" it, well, maybe you have a point...
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Yer making no sense dude...

Someone with very limited knowledge of HTML could "borrow" (and I use that term loosly) someone elses page and just change some graphics etc and call it thier own... it's still ripping it off...

If we stick to your analogy of the alphabet, then perhaps those who wish to use it should take the time to learn it?

Stealing is stealing... anyhow... we're getting away from the actual topic of this thread... if you wish to continue this debate, then by all means, post a new topic in the appropriate area and invite me through PM...

- Tanlith -
 
Tanlith, I didi say at the end there "Now if you copy someone's graphical design and site layout slavishly, so that it looks the same, and say that you "designed" it, well, maybe you have a point..." -- which is what you are saying... that's akin to copying a book someone wrote and changing a few minor things and saying that you wrote it, so it seems we both agree that that is plagairism...
 
People put their name at the top of the HTML body under a meta-tag called "author" which means simply that. They wrote it, using the same "alphabet" that anyone else would use, but they still wrote it! I really wish people wouldn't copy source code from sites that don't invite you to do such, it's just laziness. HTML is like Linux given it's command structure. Tanlith, I agree, we are getting off base and as you said, if someone wants to continue this we should (they should) start a new thread.


DigitalDon.... I would suggest you at least learn the basics of HTML. Then I would say get one of the many WYSIWYG html editors (I suggest Frontpage) and go from there. Understanding what the editor is actually doing is sort of like using EQs on a mixing console. If you don't really know what the EQ is doing then you really can't use them as effectively as if you had at least a general amount of the subject. Any other help you need... we are here for ya'!



:cool:
 
OK, for Pete's sake, I AM A LAZY THIEF!

Happy now?


But I will continue copying source HTML from other sites and amending it to my purposes, by the time I am finished noone would recognise where it came from. Just saves a lot of time and does no harm to anyone, it's not as if I am doing it for commercial purposes.
 
glynb said:
OK, for Pete's sake, I AM A LAZY THIEF!

Happy now?


But I will continue copying source HTML from other sites and amending it to my purposes, by the time I am finished noone would recognise where it came from. Just saves a lot of time and does no harm to anyone, it's not as if I am doing it for commercial purposes.
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Yer also a hypocrite... cause I'm pretty damn sure that if you recorded a #1 hit and a group of people got together and offered it for "free" as an MP3 download causing a few million in lost revenue (you know... for "non commercial purposes" non profit for them and all) ... you'd be ALL OVER the opprotunity to sue...

And besides... if you're useing someone elses' code to make your site more attractive... so that you can maintain and increase traffic through word of mouth (or word of e-mail "hey Jeff... check out this link... this guy's a good musician" etc...) so that you can eventually turn a profit selling your music..then yes verginia you are using it for commercial purposes...

Theft is theft... there's tonns of posts on that very subject all over this BBS... most haven't looked at it specifically from the HTML perspective, but it does count...

Any doubts? Feel free to educate yourself here:http://www.copyright.com

and here: Official US Copyrigt Website

- Tanlith -
 
Right then, so I am a lazy thieving hypocrite in your book, but at least I am honest about it!

Funny, I was speaking to a guy in a covers band yesterday. He was complaining because another covers band in town had copied 'their' set and were being more succesful at getting gigs. I pointed out that the songs were written by other prople and every band was free to cover them anyway, he saw my point.

HTML tags are free to use for all of us. We are not talking about source code for executable programs.

I'm sure web developers don't always start with a clean sheet but instead use 'off the shelf' templates. All I do, and suggest others do is go out and find a template they like, then adapt it to your own purposes in order to save time. If someone doesn't know enough about HTML code in the first place then it isn't going to work for them.

Like I said, what I do is no different to some songwriter copying another's chord structure and then creating a new song from it IMO, that's how I sleep at night.
 
HTML is like Linux given it's command structure.
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Huh?

HTML is markup language.

Linux is an operating system.

How are they alike? I mean, they are both designed and used by humans; both come from Earth; they both are used with computers...

If you stretch your definition of similarity far enough, anything is kind of like anything...
 
I'm sure web developers don't always start with a clean sheet but instead use 'off the shelf' templates. All I do, and suggest others do is go out and find a template they like, then adapt it to your own purposes in order to save time.
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Absolutely. That's exactly what we do in many cases. Not only do we do that, it's common practice and usually encouraged and expected. However, I never try to make a site look just like something someone else has done that is unique or creative. I might look to see how they approached certain design challenges, and I might adopt a similar approach some time if I like the logic of it...

To me your analogy with common chord progressions in songwriting is spot on. There are certain ways to arrange chords that work, and everybody learns them, more or less, by listening to a million tunes, learning the elements of music, and identifying the patterns and common structures. Then you write songs.
 
glynb said:
Right then, so I am a lazy thieving hypocrite in your book, but at least I am honest about it!

Funny, I was speaking to a guy in a covers band yesterday. He was complaining because another covers band in town had copied 'their' set and were being more succesful at getting gigs. I pointed out that the songs were written by other prople and every band was free to cover them anyway, he saw my point.
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OK now you're arguing symantics to try and support a moot point.

HTML tags are free to use for all of us. We are not talking about source code for executable programs.
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This may be true, but if I handed you a pile of bricks some cement and a stack of lumber would you have the skill needed to make it into a house? Not likely... I have a dog that likes to chase cars... by your logic she should be able to drive one if she ever catches one...

I'm sure web developers don't always start with a clean sheet but instead use 'off the shelf' templates.
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Which are usually included with the software they purchassed... and speaking from experience, most professional (ergo successful) web developers do prefer to start off with a clean, blank "sheet" ... those that do use templates usually created them themselves (In my experiance... and I've worked with a LOT of designers in my day)

All I do, and suggest others do is go out and find a template they like, then adapt it to your own purposes in order to save time. If someone doesn't know enough about HTML code in the first place then it isn't going to work for them.
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Again, by that logic it should be ok to go out and suggest that people here visit the MP3 Clinic and "borrow" anything they like the sound of and use it on their own CD... of course, make a few minor changes and polish it up so it appears a bit different... but steal it anyway... and I reiterate: if you want to do your own web pages, LEARN HTML (and any other scripting language you wish to use... JAVA; FLASH etc...) I'm so sick of visiting sites that have flash movies & java scripts that were stolen from other places... if you don't wanna learn Java than at least get your scripts from the many many FREE sources on the web! (That last comment isn't aimed at you in particular... just a general rant)

Like I said, what I do is no different to some songwriter copying another's chord structure and then creating a new song from it IMO, that's how I sleep at night.
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Just out of curiosity, how old are you? Cause I used to think that way about music when I was about 18-20... now that I'm much older, it really annoys the shit outa me when I hear a chord progression in a song and I know that this wannabe artist is getting rich off of someone elses work because they don't have the talent to come up with something original...

- Tanlith -
 
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sae said:
There is a difference between looking at the code to see how a certain effect was achieved, such as links changing colors on mouseovers, etc.

But that is totally DIFFERENT than copying the whole sites layout (very bad), or even images (horrible).

Can you copy a layout, or can that be copyrighted?
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It's 100% copyright infringement unless you end up defacing the original coding till it's completely impossible to discern it from the original... at which point you might as well have written it from scratch.

- Tanlith -
 
How much has to be the same before you can claim someone ripped you off?

I mean the links on top, the links on the right, etc have all been done over a million times.

So in order for copyright infringment to occur do the links have to be similar, does the background image have to be similar, do the colors have to be similar.

Where do you draw the line?
 
sae said:
How much has to be the same before you can claim someone ripped you off?

I mean the links on top, the links on the right, etc have all been done over a million times.

So in order for copyright infringment to occur do the links have to be similar, does the background image have to be similar, do the colors have to be similar.

Where do you draw the line?
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That would be a matter for the courts to decide... but here's an example of what has happened in the past (more than once):

"Jimmy" decides to make a website to promote his new product. He knows very little about HTML, but knows a little about Dreamweaver... so he surfs around and finds a page he likes... he selects View/Source from his IE menu and copies the source to the clipboard... he then pastes it into the code view of Dreamweaver. Not understanding the code, Jimmy then returns to the WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) editor in Dreamweaver and makes all his changes... in the end, to the average person you might not notice too much similarity between his site and the one he stole the code from.

Eventually his product begins to sell well and one day one of the web designers from the place Jimmy stole the code from pays the site a visit to see the product... instead he see's his own handiwork... curious he selects View/Source and lauches a lawsuit... why? Jimmy didn't remove some of the most tell tale info... the meta tags and comments that some WebDesigners use throughout the page...

In some cases the pages contained simple custom/hidden counters that report to a specified database... which would generate the question: "Why does my database say I got 300,000 hits yet my counter only says 120,000????"

So it's wise to learn the HTML ... and if you know HTML, then why bother ripping a "template" from somewhere else? I don't do it professionally, but I can whip out a completely custom template for an entire site in about 2hrs... Add about 4-5hrs to that for graphics in Photoshop and all I'd have to add is content. (Which may take longer depending on how much & what kind of content we're talking about.)

i mean realisticly how much time and effort would it take for someone to learn HTML? It's pretty simple... the only real complicated part is when you decide to add forms etc... and that can't be effectively "borrowed"... I bet with the right book, anyone here could learn it over one weekend... enough to experiment and either mimic a concept they've seen (like the standers menu down the right banner at the top etc) without compromising their integrity...

Personally... I find it ironic that this debate has come this far... those of you who advocate this stealing of someone elses web work would love to call yourselves musicians and/or songwriters... but you choose to steal someone elses creative work and call it your own? After all, a web desing is in itself a form of artwork and expression... tap into your own creativity... after all... doesn't it make more sense to showcase your music on a site that was created solely from the same mind that created the music??

I said it before and I'll say it again... people crack me up!

- Tanlith -
 
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