Watch Yoad Nevo mix from his point of view

[easlern]

So awesome watching this guy work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUCx5J8LcsA

Looks like he's using an SSL 4000, which has a pre, eq, compressor, fader, and busser(router? what do you call it?) on each channel. Wish I had just a couple channels off that thing, the hands-on method seems so much easier than using mouse/keyboard. Hmm wonder if they make MIDI controllers like that. . .

 

[jkuehlin]

Yup. Its a 4G. They're nice. But high maintenance. You need a good repair tech, a lot of spare parts, and a new HVAC unit for your machine room. And be prepared to quadruple your electrical bill. I like control surfaces. Mixing feels more kinesthetic and even therapeutic at times being able to move stuff around physically.

But the sonics aren't all they're cracked up to be. And the recall isn't worth the effort. Be prepared to spend 10K hiring a company to assemble it. The framing and modular component installation process is way over the head of most pro engineers.

There's a few large format DAW controllers. Your pro options would be Avid, Harrison, SSL and Yamaha if you're willing to count the Nuage as a large format console. I don't know if I would.

Couldn't tell you much about the consumer controllers.

 

[4DBoy]

Hi Jkuehlin, do you use a control surface? I have to confess I come from an analogue background where I mostly used a desk - although nothing in the league of the SSL. I mix in the box now, but I really miss the speed with which I could pull up a mix. I mostly use Logic, do any of those control surfaces work with Logic and what is the price point?

I have to say I would take the recall ability in the box over the speed on a console any day, but a hybrid would be ideal.

I love this video too, it shows how you can feel your way without getting bogged down with the mouse etc.

 

[easlern]

But the sonics aren't all they're cracked up to be.

Is that a common thing with consoles? I can imagine why a piece of outboard gear dedicated to just one function might edge out the console, compressors in particular. But Chris Lord Alge uses the same/similar model for his mixing, I can't imagine these guys would use anything that doesn't sound excellent.

 

[jkuehlin]

Hi Jkuehlin, do you use a control surface? I have to confess I come from an analogue background where I mostly used a desk - although nothing in the league of the SSL. I mix in the box now, but I really miss the speed with which I could pull up a mix. I mostly use Logic, do any of those control surfaces work with Logic and what is the price point?

I have to say I would take the recall ability in the box over the speed on a console any day, but a hybrid would be ideal.

I love this video too, it shows how you can feel your way without getting bogged down with the mouse etc.

The pro level ones start at $30K and scale to a half million. The majority of the complete system configurations fall in the $70k-120k range.

I don't use small controllers anymore, but I have to admit there seems to be a gap in the market between the $3000 and under controllers and the $20K and up. I mean unless you want a Slate Raven, you have NO options in the $9-10K range. Even the cheaper digico and yamaha stuff that runs in the $20's, isn't really $20's after you get the I/O converters and Dante network.

I use an Avid System 5bp. 96 preamps, and 128 busses. I couldn't agree with you more, that trying to manage a choir and orchestra session with 200 tracks and live-to-air broadcast, and an integrated HD video network is far far beyond the ability of something anyone can do with a mouse. Man...even thinking about the makes you sort of cringe a little.

 

[jkuehlin]

Is that a common thing with consoles? I can imagine why a piece of outboard gear dedicated to just one function might edge out the console, compressors in particular. But Chris Lord Alge uses the same/similar model for his mixing, I can't imagine these guys would use anything that doesn't sound excellent.

I'm not saying that there isn't a truly unique identity to the sonic signature of certain gear. What I meant to communicate was that tracking and mixing with a Trident, Neve VR, or SSL give you an incredible sound, but its only truly necessary under certain circumstances. So if you're tracking an extremely well treated studio shed, with a Vintech preamp and a Brauner, there's no need to feel that your mixes are suffering because you don't have an SSL. Get a good song, get a good signal chain though a good converter, mix it right though good monitors, and no one is going to say... 'gee, I wish that record sounded more analog'. So analog gear isn't all that its cracked up to be in the sense that a good musician is perfectly capable of making an awesome record without it.

JJP, Andy Schoeps, Tony Maserati and Bob Clearmountain were all analog kings of hill at one time. All have gone in the box. Some of them like Andrew, claiming 100% ITB at this point. Some because they hate conversion, others for workflow, others for mobility and maintenance...whatever reason. And CLA does a lot more work in the box these days than I think some people realize.

 

[miroslav]

JJP, Andy Schoeps, Tony Maserati and Bob Clearmountain were all analog kings of hill at one time. All have gone in the box. Some of them like Andrew, claiming 100% ITB at this point. Some because they hate conversion, others for workflow, others for mobility and maintenance...whatever reason. And CLA does a lot more work in the box these days than I think some people realize.

So why did you get that massive console...?

I once asked CLA about that when he was here doing a Q & A here...since he pimps his Waves plugs all the time...
...and he kinda fudged the answer, saying he uses what works.
It sounded to me like he didn't want to admit he prefers his consoles and rack gear...but he's promoting the plugs because they have his name.

 

[4DBoy]

The pro level ones start at $30K and scale to a half million. The majority of the complete system configurations fall in the $70k-120k range.

I don't use small controllers anymore, but I have to admit there seems to be a gap in the market between the $3000 and under controllers and the $20K and up. I mean unless you want a Slate Raven, you have NO options in the $9-10K range. Even the cheaper digico and yamaha stuff that runs in the $20's, isn't really $20's after you get the I/O converters and Dante network.

I use an Avid System 5bp. 96 preamps, and 128 busses. I couldn't agree with you more, that trying to manage a choir and orchestra session with 200 tracks and live-to-air broadcast, and an integrated HD video network is far far beyond the ability of something anyone can do with a mouse. Man...even thinking about the makes you sort of cringe a little.

The reason I asked was to see if there was anything in the $2k price range that was a good fit. I couldn't justify those costs. Luckily my location recording is very few and far between these days, but I know exactly what you mean! For me it is more about ergonomics than huge projects, so justifying a fraction of the cost makes no sense. Cheers for the insight.

 

[RFR]

Anyone seen the API box.? Seen a lot of buzz on this small controller/console geared towards the project studio. No idea of the price.

 

[jkuehlin]

So why did you get that massive console...?

?? The S5 console is digital...and its for film dubbing. JJP, Schoeps, Tony, Bob, and Chris are all music mix engineers. So the answers is that I'm running a completely different type of facility. The S5 is like the SSL duality and Neve 88D in that it has an analog layer of remote functions. So they're an analog digital blend.

I once asked CLA about that when he was here doing a Q & A here...since he pimps his Waves plugs all the time...
...and he kinda fudged the answer, saying he uses what works.
It sounded to me like he didn't want to admit he prefers his consoles and rack gear...but he's promoting the plugs because they have his name.

Chris uses hundreds of plugins but his sessions are so folded up by the time they reach him I wonder if he even knows how many plugins are actually there. His assistants are doing the mix prep and the folding. In order for him to fold 30 guitar tracks onto his Sony reel-to-reel machines, they have to balance the 30 guitars before they can shrink the stem down to 2. That takes a lot of plugins. They're might be printing processors from i/o loops before the fold down, but they're certainly using plugins.

Ya know...Chris is unclear sometimes. I've studied his presentations pretty intensively. He flip flops on the analog vs digital debate. I can't tell if its because he finds himself wavering back and forth, or if its based on who he's talking to. He does always assert the 'whatever works for you', but sometimes when he does that he misses the point. People ask him what worked for him and why. He'll respond along the lines of...I don't have an opinion, it all depends on the song.

So...here's the conclusion I came to. And I may be wrong. But Chris doesn't care. What I mean is that if he's happy, the artist is happy, and he gets paid, then what's the point nit picking at the process. Analog/digital/itb/outboard....whatever. Its easy to say when you're sitting in his chair but sometimes its also easy to forget how many other pros would give their left nut to have the number of Grammys he does. He does seem to want to help though. He does seem to enjoy investing his knowledge in other people. I can't and won't judge his motives. I just kind of sit back and appreciate what he does.

 

[miroslav]

...then what's the point nit picking at the process.

Exactly.

And I was kidding about the console....it was more about the hardware VS ITB perspective (analog or digital).

 

[jkuehlin]

The reason I asked was to see if there was anything in the $2k price range that was a good fit. I couldn't justify those costs. Luckily my location recording is very few and far between these days, but I know exactly what you mean! For me it is more about ergonomics than huge projects, so justifying a fraction of the cost makes no sense. Cheers for the insight.

Ah! I see. I'm honestly the wrong guy to ask Don't take the wrong way...I'm not bragging by saying that I don't work with the smaller units. I'm saying that I have zero experience with much outside of enterprise level systems and don't really know.

 

[miroslav]

His assistants are doing the mix prep and the folding.

I often wondered about that kind of stuff with the big-name mixer who have endless work...how much of the mix decisions are being done by assistants, and then the "name" mixer just does the final tweaks...?

Sure, there are lots of boring chores that go into major mixes...but still, when assistants are applying processing and what have you...and then folding all that in, you can't deny that mix decisions are already being made without the "name" guy.

Granted...his assistants probably know how the "name" mixer likes things...but I guess I'm wondering how much of that is a "preset" way of working...of doing sorta the same approach to many mixes, and then just the final stage gets the "name" mixer's touch...?

I also wonder how many "name" mixers are doing all the work and not wanting any decisions to be made by assistants without their direct input...?

Maybe we'll never know for sure...just like the hardware VS plugs thing.

 

[jkuehlin]

Exactly.

And I was kidding about the console....it was more about the hardware VS ITB perspective (analog or digital).

Pfft. Its funny chit chatting with people on a new forum...lol - I guess you tend to take everything a bit too seriously at first. Like when Boulderguy said he found an S5 cheap on craigslist...and I then I tried making him an offer on his monitoring peripherals.

 

[jkuehlin]

I often wondered about that kind of stuff with the big-name mixer who have endless work...how much of the mix decisions are being done by assistants, and then the "name" mixer just does the final tweaks...?

Sure, there are lots of boring chores that go into major mixes...but still, when assistants are applying processing and what have you...and then folding all that in, you can't deny that mix decisions are already being made without the "name" guy.

Granted...his assistants probably know how the "name" mixer likes things...but I guess I'm wondering how much of that is a "preset" way of working...of doing sorta the same approach to many mixes, and then just the final stage gets the "name" mixer's touch...?

I also wonder how many "name" mixers are doing all the work and not wanting any decisions to be made by assistants without their direct input...?

Maybe we'll never know for sure...just like the hardware VS plugs thing.

I can speak a little bit to that. You'd think the track folding guys would be at the bottom of the food chain, but actually they're pretty much second to the top. At the mix LA studio in Tarzana, if you look at where the console is, the PT operator is actually facing Chris. In my world, the operators go on the wings or at the rear desks. The reason is that everyone needs to be able to see the screen. Chris doesn't have a screen.

If I was mixing music and going reel to reel, the assistant needs to do 2 things before the mix comes to me. They need the natural musical instincts to be able to determine what the critical parts of the fold entail based on the animatics and the roughs. (Animatics are example recordings that display desired properties that the producer wants a mix to contain). Then they need to be able to create the clearest, most natural, and balanced fold they can. So they aren't going for 'big'. They're going for transparent. 'Big' happens in the next part. And they're dry for the most part too. If I get handed a track that just wasn't cutting it, I'd send the mix back to the assistant, and tell him to re-work the folds on the guitars so that x, y and z are more something and then we'll try it again. Sometimes we can do it on the spot, sometimes it'll take a few hours.

Dave Pensado does a lot of stuff himself. Granted he's nowhere near as expensive as Chris. Dave likes total control over his own folds. His assistant does more prep work and less actual mixing. I've seen Dave's guy work. Watched him import, color code, label, organize, move busses to the top (others like them at the bottom), time align, check for phase, write notes in the columns, configure the console i/o (if there is a console), pre-patch to the outboard gear, import template settings, he might clear automation, trim the heads and tails of clips, marker the sections, import the reference mixes, import the rough mixes...and that probably isn't even all of it.

I need my guys (or girls) to do more of what Dave has his guy going. The difference isn't so much in the caliber of work of Dave vs Chris. Its in their specific workflows and differences in session management.

 

[jkuehlin]

Oh...and now that you have me going...

Tony's guys do a BOATLOAD of work. There are sessions where his name went on the record but he admitantly only spent three hours in the room. He acted more as a mix engineer consultant than an actual mix engineer.

At one point Tony had a crazy workflow. If they sent him a session with a session with 400 tracks, his guys would listen to every single one before starting to fold. He was known to have put 512 track PT rigs on his tech rider.

 

[miroslav]

Dave Pensado does a lot of stuff himself. Granted he's nowhere near as expensive as Chris. Dave likes total control over his own folds. His assistant does more prep work and less actual mixing. I've seen Dave's guy work. Watched him import, color code, label, organize, move busses to the top (others like them at the bottom), time align, check for phase, write notes in the columns, configure the console i/o (if there is a console), pre-patch to the outboard gear, import template settings, he might clear automation, trim the heads and tails of clips, marker the sections, import the reference mixes, import the rough mixes...and that probably isn't even all of it.

That's what I would expect the assistants would be doing...mainly prepping/organizing so that it's setup for the mixer's workflow preferences....and not any actual mixing decisions.

Of course...it probably takes more time for a mixer doing all the mixing alone, but IMO, it would be a more personal mix as opposed to the assembly line mixing, but I get it...with lots of work and lots of tracks, there's a point where those guys couldn't function all alone...I mean, the project time constraints probably demand the kind of turnaround that demands the assistants doing more of the work.
That said...I would hate to find out that I sent my stuff to some "name" for mixing, and they basically passed it off to their assistants, and only acted as a superficial consultant...
...but then, I don't see my mixes going out to anyone any time soon. I'll be doing my own mixing for the foreseeable future...and I don't have any assistants.

 

[jkuehlin]

...I mean, the project time constraints probably demand the kind of turnaround that demands the assistants doing more of the work.

Even more than that, for me it was the tediousness of the process. I have a short attention span...unfortunately. By the time I get everything labeled and straightened out, I'm pretty burned out on the song. I mean...if I really do a thorough cleanup job, it takes hours. And mental energy coping with annoying parts of the process. And you do get listening fatigue. Because you're plowing through tracks, listening, and you have to make decisions on the folds. The advantage is that if I do the thing myself, I'll know instantly what I did wrong if something goes haywire in the mix. But to be honest, one of my guys has done the fold work for me so many times, that he's actually better at it than I am.

That said...I would hate to find out that I sent my stuff to some "name" for mixing, and they basically passed it off to their assistants, and only acted as a superficial consultant...

Thats an interesting comment. Folding tracks is sub-mixing them. And so is the process of applying plugins ITB. And I consider that a legit part of the mix. So its not as cut-and-dry as saying - he edited, I mixed. Because his decisions sub mix decisions were a part of the critical process. I mean, you actually hear the mix choices he makes in the final product.

...but then, I don't see my mixes going out to anyone any time soon. I'll be doing my own mixing for the foreseeable future...and I don't have any assistants.

Dude...hire someone! Help the economy. Create a job. lol...pick the right guy and its well worth the cash to have someone competent and dependable around.

 

[RFR]

For a non comercial home studio, basically a 'hobby'? I'm sure you jest.

 

[jkuehlin]

For a non comercial home studio, basically a 'hobby'? I'm sure you jest.

oh. right. forgot about that.