Warmth

[black aspirin]

I'm recording heavily distorted guitar tuned to A and using a Matamp GTO 120w tube head....using two Shure sm57's at a variety of distances, angles, etc. and trying to avoid / minimize phasing as much as possible.

I like my guitar sound when standing in front of the amp. I don't like the recorded sound, it seems like the mids aren't being captured, so it's just kinda dry and hollow. Good bite I guess, but no warmth.

What would you recommend to help me achieve more mids and warmth? Someone else recommended a condenser mic and a tube preamp....agree?

 

[Massive Master]

Switching mics will change the flavor - Switching the AMP's sound will change the meal.

Don't worry about it sounding good "in the room" - Get in there and find out what the *mic* is hearing.

And crank up the mids, and turn back the gain.

 

[hand in glove]

What cab are using? 4 x 12? 1 x 12? 2 x 10?, etc... Where abouts are you placing the microphone? What are the settings on your guitar amp? What style of music is it your recording? Is it a riff, a power chord, a solo? These are the key issues which are all relative to deciding on the settings for the recording, and alot of it has to do with the source.

I've had more luck recording with smaller cabs and amps (combos) rather than full stacks, so maybe give that a go too. Also how much gain are you running on your amp? In a recording situation, even metal bands, turn down their gains a fair bit because it can come out as just udder mudd in a recording situation, even more or less in a less-expensive environment.

Have you tried also running a line out and tracking that as another track? Sometimes people get good results with that doubling the guitar track with that method, having the line out volume down just to give it a bit of edge, or simply doubling one of the other recorded tracks of the guitar - doesn't work all the time but its worth a go. Distortion guitar sucks with recording, i usually EQ a bit on dist. guitars to get a sound i'm happy with, and like you said the mids can be hard to capture.

Also, what other mics have you got? Experiment with other mics, give a condenser a go if you have one, see what results happen then.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

What John said so deliciously is right. (Am I the only one in here getting hungry?)

Also, try starting with a single 57 first, get that as right as you can. Try close miking the first 57, trying different positions on the cone. If you're miking the dustcap, that can muck up the sound a bit. Move it out onto the cone itself, and don't be afriad to angle the mic a bit. In general (with exceptions), miking near the voice coil gap will give you a cleaner more accurate sound whereas out towards the edge by the surround tends to be a bit warmer on the low end but not as clean.

Pick the best speaker in the cab and try the mic out at different positions based upon the above.

Once you get that good, then decide on what, if anything you want or need to do with the second 57.

YMMV and all that.

G.

 

[superspit]

I'm recording heavily distorted guitar tuned to A and using a Matamp GTO 120w tube head....using two Shure sm57's at a variety of distances, angles, etc. and trying to avoid / minimize phasing as much as possible.

I like my guitar sound when standing in front of the amp. I don't like the recorded sound, it seems like the mids aren't being captured, so it's just kinda dry and hollow. Good bite I guess, but no warmth.

What would you recommend to help me achieve more mids and warmth? Someone else recommended a condenser mic and a tube preamp....agree?

Intersesting....(I was playing with this concept for a while)..I've finally gone for the X V amp directly into my desk, in stereo!!
I gave up on the 2 mic (1x 57 and 1x Cond), I finally got the sound, just not the consistency. (as u are, I was constantly stuffing around with placements!!). Still ended up hollow and weak, (due to phase relationships or some other bloody issues).

I tried the direct input method about 10 years ago, before pods and vamps were recognised as real kit, (or even invented as we know them), and was always dissapointed with the 'unreal' non-ambient sound. So 1 sm57 helped me for the next 10 years. (I used alot of post production to get the 'sound').
Now it's V-amp/Cab Sim all the way....ambience, power, no noise, and any fx I want!! ....and all in stereo. (PHAT!!)
Try it? (or keep playing with mic placement?) You may finally get the latter one right with the other posted advice above, and that will work great too, but not from me bro!! (I'm a Joe Meek wannabe..lol!...without the gay/murder/tantrum bit!!).

Anyways...

Kindest Regards,
Superspit.

 

[black aspirin]

What cab are using? 4 x 12? 1 x 12? 2 x 10?, etc... Where abouts are you placing the microphone? What are the settings on your guitar amp? What style of music is it your recording? Is it a riff, a power chord, a solo? These are the key issues which are all relative to deciding on the settings for the recording, and alot of it has to do with the source.

I'm using a Matamp 4 x 12 cab. Mics are usually 1 to 12 inches from the cab, pointed mostly in the centers of the bottom speakers (either on the same speaker or alternate ones). I've toyed with angles, where the mics are pointing exactly and such like crazy. I've gone further out on the cone as well. My amp is set with the bass at about 3 o'clock, treble 12 o'clock, mids at max, and boost at 10 or 11. Gain is at about 1 o'clock on the amp, 2 o'clock on the pedal (the amp by itself is not a very saturated distortion).

Also, what other mics have you got? Experiment with other mics, give a condenser a go if you have one, see what results happen then.

I only have two 57's and a Beta52. I've tried the Beta 52, and it actually works for certain purposes on guitar. Great for my bass, too.

So would a condenser help as a third mic, maybe spaced 7-8 feet back (while trying to avoid phasing problems) behind the two 57's? Would the tube preamp really help add warmth as someone else had suggested?

 

[black aspirin]

What John said so deliciously is right. (Am I the only one in here getting hungry?)

Also, try starting with a single 57 first, get that as right as you can. Try close miking the first 57, trying different positions on the cone. If you're miking the dustcap, that can muck up the sound a bit. Move it out onto the cone itself, and don't be afriad to angle the mic a bit. In general (with exceptions), miking near the voice coil gap will give you a cleaner more accurate sound whereas out towards the edge by the surround tends to be a bit warmer on the low end but not as clean.

Pick the best speaker in the cab and try the mic out at different positions based upon the above.

Once you get that good, then decide on what, if anything you want or need to do with the second 57.

YMMV and all that.

G.

Yes Southside Glen, I start with one 57 and get the best, fullest sound possible with that one mic by messing with the placement until I like it. Then I plug in the other mic and leave the first one on, so I'm paying attention to the relationship between the two and thus the overall sound.

I concur with how you describe the sound changes as you move from dustcap to farther out on the cone.

 

[hand in glove]

So would a condenser help as a third mic, maybe spaced 7-8 feet back (while trying to avoid phasing problems) behind the two 57's? Would the tube preamp really help add warmth as someone else had suggested?

To answer your first question, its not a matter of help rather than a matter of extra options. Try alternate to its positioning, such as on the cone or as you said 7-8 feet back, see which one offers more to your likings; the 57, or the condenser. Ears are the key.

For the second one, i don't really think so, it depends really. It'll give it a different shape to say the least. Depending on the sound your amp is giving, it might work completely the opposite way you want it to, or even the other way around?

But still personally i still believe its to do with source. 57's usually provoke pleasing results for guitar amps, but otherwise change guitars.

A few weeks ago i was laying down some tracks for my mate and he was going through a real nice Fender Deluxe amp (think it was a hot rod - but the sound was sensational!), it sounded beautiful in the room, though we spent around an hour trying to perfect the tone for the recording.
In the end, we decided to change from his jazz guitar to a fender 50th anni. strat. The tone was completely different, and more-studio friendly and complimented the song.

So i say try alternating between guitars, something remotely different. After all, the stairway to heaven solo was recorded through some low-wattage amp and on a fender telecaster, yet he plays with a gibson (double-neck to add) SG live.
My point is, some guitars just seem to work better in certain environments, some work better in the studio, some work better on stage. Just give that a go. It might just be that simple

 

[Keiffer]

Post something so we can hear what you're referring too...

Not all 57's are created equally. I have several that are very nasally and I don't care for them in front of a cab. I have others that are just excellent. If your 57 has a very strong 5K-7K bump with a very weak bottom, consider removing the transformer. Also, 57's are sensitive to preamp loading. Maybe, try an Audix i5. I'd stay with Dynamic mics.

Here's one technique that works and if your tone is still lacking, then start turning the amp's knobs. If you still can't get it right, then try another amp.

Positioning...
Mic 1 - Right up on the grill as close as possible without touching. Now with only amp his, position the mic for the brightest hiss. This will probably be pointing near the cone-dust cap seam.

Mic 2 - Right beside Mic 1 as close as possible and angled 45 degrees.

Tracking...
Ensure the two mic levels are very similar and that palm muting does not overload the preamp. Record each mic to it's own track.

Mixing...
Mix the two mics to taste to create a mono mix. One will be bright and the other woody and bassy. A lot of flexibility here as you can run the gambit between mics.
Roll off above 7K hz
Roll off below 80 hz
Play with narrowly notching (Hi Q) around 2.3K hz. This will do wonders.
Play with multiband compression below ~270 hz. More than likely a must.

While rolling back the amp's gain may help, it may not be the solution and may compromise the tone and feel. I wouldn't start there.

Cheers!

 

[Elton Bear]

I hate SM57 recorded guitar, I've taken to using an AKG 3000 now. Nice LDC, great for warm clean sound, or dirty as fuck overdrive. I don't really know what to suggest with your choice of mic, try everything else in this thread though.

I don't tend to use '57s on guitar cabs anymore, sounds to harsh for me...

 

[chessrock]

Forget the placement. Forget the mic or the technique. That stuff is really of minimal importance when mic'ing a guitar amp.

It's really all about the amp. If you're not getting the recorded tone you want, then you need to adjust the amp until you do. Play with the gain and the tone controls, switch pickups, whatever you have to do.

You can also forget about what it sounds like in the room. It's just not the same, and it's not goinng to translate; for starters the mic is pressed right up against the speaker. Of course it's going to hear the amp much differently than you are from your vantage point. You're also hearing your cab at very loud volumes in the room ... while your playback/monitoring volume is probably only a fraction of that. And when it's all mixed down, the listener will be hearing at even quieter levels still ... so the sound of the amp "in the room" while you're playing it is naturally going to be a very skewed frame of reference.

.

 

[Keiffer]

Forget the placement. Forget the mic or the technique. That stuff is really of minimal importance when mic'ing a guitar amp.

I disagree. Mic choice and position play a significant role.

 

[hand in glove]

I'd agree in saying that mic placement can be a vital step to getting a good track down, but that being said, it doesn't seem to be the real issue you have here in accordance to your first post with stating you've already tried different positions.

Its gotta be at the source i reckon, its either the amp or the guitar.

 

[black aspirin]

Thanks for all the replies so far....I will try some of these suggestions for sure.

The reason I stated that I like the sound in front of my amp was that I figured that if it sounds good to my ears, I should be able to capture it. And if it doesn't sound good on the recording, but does so live, then my recording technique is the problem, not my amp or my guitar (we'll just not talk about my playing though, ).

But I am learning that the two don't necessarily work like that, so point taken.

 

[Nicole_Rose]

have you read this post?
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=27030

Harvey goes into quite a bit of detail at one point about how to get that exact desired sound from the way the amp is mic'd and all. you might find it useful.

 

[Hollowdan]

Hello!
I use 7-strings tuned to A myself, and assuming that's what you mean by tuned to A, I will start by making some sense of the situation.

A 7-string guitar (or baritone 6-string, or some poor guitar with guage .014's on it tuned until the strings are flapping in the breeze) tuned to A goes down to 55hz

An SM57 rolls off around 80-100hz

Do the math and what do we have?

Yeah the 57's just won't cut the mustard!

Personally I use Sennhieser MD421's and UHER M538's with a kick drum mic (usually my trusty E602) directly on the speakers with an LDC (usually an AT 3035 or 4033) a few feet in front of the 4x12's (this mic will have to be time aligned in the computer after recording so it doesn't knock eveything out of phase, or sound like your in a concrete cathedral)

Another option if you can afford it is to use Royer R121 ribbon mics (If I could afford them I would be using them) However a 120watt tube amp would probably kill the ribbons at a rather speedy rate! I would also say that an EV RE-20, AKG C414, AT 4033, or any other Large diaphragm mic might be worth a shot as long as they register flat response down to at least 30-40hz.

Basically I am saying:
Put an MD421 or AKG C414 on the cabinet and an LDC a few feet in front of it, then check phase and time align the LDC track.


If the guitar is hitting in the 55hz range then you need mic's (and pre's) that can reproduce those frequencies.

Or just use a POD and laugh in the face of the old school, technology fearing, close minded, "you HAVE to use a 57 through an API to get a great guitar sound" traditionalists, when they say "now that's how a guitar should sound, great job!" because they have no idea you recorded it direct! I say send em home to cry on their Les Paul's and Marshall's with their cave-man reel to reel's, when they finally realize time actually did NOT stop in the 80's LMAO!

Hope this helps!

On a personal note: does anyone have any idea why ESP says their 7-string baritone tuned to B registers to 53hz? (If A is 55hz then how can B be 53hz?)
Maybe something got lost in the translation from japanese to english LMAO!

 

[TexRoadkill]

I disagree. Mic choice and position play a significant role.

But they are still just variations on the sound coming out of the amp. A good source and a good room makes mic placement almost a non-issue. Then it's all about capturing the space and not worrying about the tone.

If you're guitar tone isn't rockin' it isn't because the 57 is 10 degrees in the wrong direction.

 

[Keiffer]

But they are still just variations on the sound coming out of the amp. A good source and a good room makes mic placement almost a non-issue. Then it's all about capturing the space and not worrying about the tone.

If you're guitar tone isn't rockin' it isn't because the 57 is 10 degrees in the wrong direction.

I sort-of agree but you've lost me. This thread is about micing for heavy guitar which normally implies close micing a guitar cab. I'm talking right up on the speaker. Therefore, Little to No room... Matter of fact, efforts are usually made to minimize room influence. Possibly, the only real interference would be room modes.

My experience is that it all matter's and yes 10 degrees or one 1 inch will make a huge difference. Not as it was stated above that it doesn't matter at all or even inferenced in yours. I am absolutely baffled by comments implying mic position doesn't matter. I can only take that one has little experience micing heavily distorted guitar.

It'd be nice if the initial poster would post an example of the work and also anyone else.

 

[Keiffer]

Yeah the 57's just won't cut the mustard!

Are you serious... most of the heaviest guitar known to mankind was tracked with 57's. But also, the real bottom impact comes from the Bass Gtr and not the Guitars. The bottom on heavy distortion is usually crap. I direct back to my previous post.

Don't take my word for it...

Bands in the Studio

Pro Tips

 

[black aspirin]

Hello!
I use 7-strings tuned to A myself, and assuming that's what you mean by tuned to A, I will start by making some sense of the situation.

A 7-string guitar (or baritone 6-string, or some poor guitar with guage .014's on it tuned until the strings are flapping in the breeze) tuned to A goes down to 55hz

Incidentally, I'm using a 6-string tuned to A (.13 to .70's).....and there is no "flapping in the breeze". If you use thick enough strings and have it set up properly, there is no need for a 7-string. I play and listen to doom metal, and out of the hundreds of bands that play in such low tunings, I'm not familiar with even ONE that uses a 7-string guitar (which are prominent in nu-metal and grindcore for some reason). They're pretty much all SG's, Les Pauls and the like (and mids are GOOD in doom metal).

An SM57 rolls off around 80-100hz

Do the math and what do we have?

Yeah the 57's just won't cut the mustard!

Personally I use Sennhieser MD421's and UHER M538's with a kick drum mic (usually my trusty E602) directly on the speakers with an LDC (usually an AT 3035 or 4033) a few feet in front of the 4x12's (this mic will have to be time aligned in the computer after recording so it doesn't knock eveything out of phase, or sound like your in a concrete cathedral)

Another option if you can afford it is to use Royer R121 ribbon mics (If I could afford them I would be using them) However a 120watt tube amp would probably kill the ribbons at a rather speedy rate! I would also say that an EV RE-20, AKG C414, AT 4033, or any other Large diaphragm mic might be worth a shot as long as they register flat response down to at least 30-40hz.

Basically I am saying:
Put an MD421 or AKG C414 on the cabinet and an LDC a few feet in front of it, then check phase and time align the LDC track.


If the guitar is hitting in the 55hz range then you need mic's (and pre's) that can reproduce those frequencies.

Thanks for the tips, Hollowdan. I have used my Shure Beta52 and had some decent results with it (I figured that tuning so low was probably getting below the range of the 57's).

I've been looking at the Sennheiser, and toying with the idea of a good tube condenser as another addition for some warmth.