Want to be a drummer!

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TelePaul

TelePaul

J to the R O C
I've been vowing to spend some cash on an old Pearl Target kit that had been set aside since it was bought. So today, I bought a bunch of Evans Double-Ply heads, some Meinl MCS hardware, a World Max vintage snare and a Sennheiser e 606 and e 604.

For me, the difference is night and day. The revamp hammered home just what bad shape the kit was in; skins were in shreds, cymbals pretty much unusable - seems to be the case with all entry level kits, which is a shame. But the new snare is pretty damn fantastic to my ears; the guy in the store told me it was a cheap attempt at a ludwig knock-off but we both agreed that it sounded pretty damn good. Did a quick tune-up pof the toms, and while I havn't got the floor dialled in right yet, the racks sound really full, quite alot of punch to them. Cymbals are pretty good too, especially the crash. Hatts are a bit on the bright side, but I finally have a ride cymbal now. I'm hoping I'll be able to manage a halfway decent recording (if I can tame my room).

Pretty excited - the difference decent heads and hardware is unreal.
 
Yeah, I just started experimenting with heads and I fell in love with the Remo vintage ambassadors. It's insane how different my drum set sounds since I use to use pinstripes. Keep experimenting with different heads and different tuning, you'll continue to be surprised at the different sounds you can get.

-Barrett
 
Okay, I posted a quick sample, completely dry and with all channels at unity gain.

www.soundclick.com/glasshouserecordings (Kit Test)

It starts with some individual hits on each part of the kit, then a few 'beats' (:o) and finally some brushes beats.I used the Glyn Johns method with two O/Hs and the kick and snare mic'd.

I know the sound is saggy overall, although it's a big improvement on any previous attempts before I replaced the skins and hardware. The cymbals seem to be cutting through nicely, although the snare sounds boxy, and the kick and possibly toms (esp. floor toms) make the whole thing sound quite saggy and dark. If you guys could advise as to the tuning and phase to begin with, that'd be awesome - once they're okay, I'd be happier working with placement (and some treatment of the room).

Also, one thing I'm still not sure of is to the inclusion or removing of a resonant head on the kick - part of me things the resonant head would contain all that air being pushed around, but part of me thinks that this is keeping my kick drum mic a good 18' from the beater skin.... :confused:

Thanks all.
 
The snare and rack toms sound good to me, but the floor tom and the kick sound too high in pitch. The heads on floor toms and kicks can be unbelievably loose sometimes. On mine, some of the tension rods are on less than 1 turn.

One thing a drum teacher taught me was to hold the kick beater against the head every time you hit. You let it rest there, not back, off the head. That really helped me.

The bottom heads on all drums is, normally, tighter than the top.

You can fine tune drums, this is how i do it, by putting a finger really lightly in the middle of the head and then tapping around the head real near the rim right in front of each tuning rod. That way you can isolate where each tuning rod is. That's a classic method drummers have been using for a long time and it's kinda like guitarists using the 12th fret harmonic to tune. When you get the drum tuned that way the resonance can jump out at you.

I can use a crap set of drums with good heads. I can't use a good set of drums with crap heads. There's nothing you can tweak on cymbals like you can on drums so cymbals you like will always be harder to find cheap... but you can. The Wuhan stuff is dirt cheap but sounds real good if you can use the trashy sound in your music.

The sticks you use have a big effect on the sound of your cymbals. I love the feel of real heavy sticks and they sound great on floor toms but I don't like them on cymbals. I like the sound of smaller tips on cymbals. So I normally play like Hal Blaine did, with my left stick (backbeats) turned around with the butt end hitting the snare. That way it's a fat stick on the snare and a small tip on the hihat, and I like that sound (with the kick beater held against the head)... that's my default routine.
 
dintymoore said:
The snare and rack toms sound good to me, but the floor tom and the kick sound too high in pitch. The heads on floor toms and kicks can be unbelievably loose sometimes. On mine, some of the tension rods are on less than 1 turn.

One thing a drum teacher taught me was to hold the kick beater against the head every time you hit. You let it rest there, not back, off the head. That really helped me.

The bottom heads on all drums is, normally, tighter than the top.

You can fine tune drums, this is how i do it, by putting a finger really lightly in the middle of the head and then tapping around the head real near the rim right in front of each tuning rod. That way you can isolate where each tuning rod is. That's a classic method drummers have been using for a long time and it's kinda like guitarists using the 12th fret harmonic to tune. When you get the drum tuned that way the resonance can jump out at you.

I can use a crap set of drums with good heads. I can't use a good set of drums with crap heads. There's nothing you can tweak on cymbals like you can on drums so cymbals you like will always be harder to find cheap... but you can. The Wuhan stuff is dirt cheap but sounds real good if you can use the trashy sound in your music.

The sticks you use have a big effect on the sound of your cymbals. I love the feel of real heavy sticks and they sound great on floor toms but I don't like them on cymbals. I like the sound of smaller tips on cymbals. So I normally play like Hal Blaine did, with my left stick (backbeats) turned around with the butt end hitting the snare. That way it's a fat stick on the snare and a small tip on the hihat, and I like that sound (with the kick beater held against the head)... that's my default routine.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice man. Tuning Toms is frustrating as hell. I find that previously they sounded quite muddy but tuning hire pretty much prevents them from resonating at all. I've experimented a bit more and have -as was suggested - placed a hole in my kick skin (although i don't have a mic stand low enough to get right up close to the beater). I'll give them another blast recording-wise and will go from there with the toms.
 
saads said:
What does that do?
Click to expand...

Hmmm...

It makes your time feel real solid. This advice was from Stanley Spector, who had a drum school in New York. He was the original drum instructor at Berklee before Berklee was called Berklee.

Before you get your top (hands) solid, you need solid feet. If your feet are solid then your hands have a foundation to build on.

I remember Stanley told me once "play with your kick foot heel up, and rest the beater against the head when you're not using it". I didn't know what he was talking about. But what a difference it made. It makes the time feel real, real solid. Stanley didn't care about rudiments or reading, he was 100% about teaching you how to play time well. He got his knowledge mainly from watching jazz drummers in NYC in the 50's like Roy Haynes.

So your heel is up, the beater is against the head, and each time you hit the beater comes back and then hits, and remains against the head (lightly). You don't need to push the beater into the head. And you can let the beater go back when your resting or do whatever, it shouldn't be a stiff rule thing, more the default way..

There was a bunch of things that Stanley taught me that no other teacher did. Mainly I'm self taught, but I have taken a fair amount of lessons too. Stanley was the only person I know of that cracked the nut of what makes a drummer groove. He could teach someone how to groove, whereas the common misconception, to this day, is that you were either born with it or weren't, which isn't true.
 
dintymoore said:
whereas the common misconception, to this day, is that you were either born with it or weren't, which isn't true.
Click to expand...

That's true, bunch of baloney that is. You can definitely learn to groove. So i tried the beater against the head thing. It'll definitely take some getting used to! Is it really worth it?
 
Lol @ groove. The most useless, vague, corny, and overused term in drumming.

I keep my kick batter resting on the head. It's just more comfortable.

TP, use resonant heads on everything. Including the kick. You can buy kick reso heads with a hole already cut for mic placement, or cut your own. It's simple. We're not in 1975 anymore. Let your drums sound like drums and not wet cardboard.

Your kit sounds okay. I think you could tighten the snare more. Watch your hits too. Snares typically ring like a mofo when you hit em off center. The floor tom and kick are way tight. Drop em down to their lowest resonant pitches. Actually, all the toms sound a little tight to me. Try going lower on everything and tighter on the snare. Also, and I try to get everyone to do this, tune the reso heads a little tighter than the batter. You get a cool Baaaaaowwwwwwwww doppler effect that sounds great and records awesomely.
 
Greg_L said:
TP, use resonant heads on everything. Including the kick. You can buy kick reso heads with a hole already cut for mic placement, or cut your own. It's simple. We're not in 1975 anymore. Let your drums sound like drums and not wet cardboard.

Your kit sounds okay. I think you could tighten the snare more. Watch your hits too. Snares typically ring like a mofo when you hit em off center. The floor tom and kick are way tight. Drop em down to their lowest resonant pitches. Actually, all the toms sound a little tight to me. Try going lower on everything and tighter on the snare. Also, and I try to get everyone to do this, tune the reso heads a little tighter than the batter. You get a cool Baaaaaowwwwwwwww doppler effect that sounds great and records awesomely.
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Thanks chief, this is the advice I was after. If it sounds 'okay' I wanna get it to sound 'fucking great'; not the most expensive kit ever but with the upgrades I know I can get it sounding better. It'll be a case of trial and error for the most part, but since posting I've cut a hole in the kick's resonant head - soup can on the stove trick - and have tuned up the snare. The Toms are going to need some more work, but I'll try to post a clip later. How does it sound with regard to phase coherency? Also, how do I stop the overtones of a tom, the ringing effect?
 
TelePaul said:
Thanks chief, this is the advice I was after. If it sounds 'okay' I wanna get it to sound 'fucking great'; not the most expensive kit ever but with the upgrades I know I can get it sounding better. It'll be a case of trial and error for the most part, but since posting I've cut a hole in the kick's resonant head - soup can on the stove trick - and have tuned up the snare. The Toms are going to need some more work, but I'll try to post a clip later. How does it sound with regard to phase coherency? Also, how do I stop the overtones of a tom, the ringing effect?
Click to expand...

I wasn't paying much attention to phase and can't listen now. I'll check again later.

First, you have to decide what kind of sound you want from your drums. Even less expensive/cheap drums can be very usable with the right heads and careful tuning. They'll never be a custom DW, but they can work. As far as toms ringing, keep in mind that the booming resonance of a tom is what gives it body and presence when playing live or for recording. A tom that sounds flat all by itself in the room will sound really dead in a mix - if you can hear it at all. What might sound too boomy when playing the drums by themselves is usually just right in a mix or live. Personally, I like my toms to boom, but that's just my personal preference. I use clear heads on both sides. If you want warmer, flatter sounding toms, start with coated batter heads. A coated/clear batter and reso combo can give you the sound you want. The coated head will flatten the overtones and the clear reso will still give the tom some body. If you want it even flatter, you can use moongels on the batter. And if you wanna go even flatter still, use a coated head on each side or coated with no resonant head at all. I really wouldn't recommend the last two, but it's up to you. I think toms with no resonant heads sound like ass. Like I said, it's not the 70's anymore. I've heard some really deep and warm coated/coated combos, but those were on really nice kits. I'd say a coated/clear setup is the way to go for what you might want.
 
Okay guys, I've posted a second sample after messing around with the tuning of the toms. I've left the original up as a reference, but this is 'Kit 2' at www.soundclick.com/glasshouserecordings

Once again, your thoughts on tuning would be hugely appreciated.
 
TelePaul said:
Okay guys, I've posted a second sample after messing around with the tuning of the toms. I've left the original up as a reference, but this is 'Kit 2' at www.soundclick.com/glasshouserecordings

Once again, your thoughts on tuning would be hugely appreciated.
Click to expand...

snare - not bad, it will just depend on what kind of snare the song demands, the ring would drive me nuts on some songs, not on others.

small tom - good

the bigger rack tom, floor tom and kick are all too tight to me. The kick needs to sound like it goes into the ground. I basically tune my lower drums (floor tom and kick) as low in pitch as I can possibly go without them sounding flabby. Your kick might be over-muffled for some songs, not for some others.

A real stupid old one is that you should be able to play "George of the Jungle" between the small tom and floor tom. That's a fourth (musical interval). I know, that's beyond stupid but there is something to it.

It does get to a point where you can't get the drums totally perfected until you know what the song is.

I have a lot of respect for Steve Jordan, style, taste and sound:
 
I think your kick drum needs more attack. I'm barely hearing the beater. Is the mic inside of the kick, or outside of the resonant head? If it's inside, point the mic towards the beater more.
 
Much better from what I remember. The snare and high tom sound pretty good. Maybe play with the snare reso head tuning and wire tension to get some of the buzz out of it and create a more defined snap. The tone sounds pretty decent though. The high toms sounds okay. The floor tom and kick still need work. They still sound tight to me. Try tuning the floor tom just tight enough to get the wrinkles out of the head, and then maybe 1/4 turn extra or until you get the lowest tone you can get without sounding floppy. Tune the bottom head the same way, but without the extra 1/4 turn. That should give you a deep and dead tone. Fine tune as necessary from there. Same with the kick. Tune the batter just past wrinkle. See what that does.

Your other thread mentions ringiness in the toms. Is this what you were talking about? Those toms are not boomy or ringy to me. I suspect they'd sound pretty flat in a full mix.
 
Thanks everyone for your input, in a hurry so can't quote individual contributions. Dinty and Greg, with regard to tuning, you guys are spot on. I tuned the second rack tom and floor tom down quite a bit, and not only are the intervals more pronounced, tuning down somehow sounds less flabby - same with the kick, tuning it down actually makes it sound tighter. Wiull post another sample tomorrow - I also had to check out 'George of the Jungle' on Youtube, we didn't get it here.

I'm not sure what's causing this, but it seems to run counter-intuitive to what I know about music generally - as best i can figure, it's akin to the difference between a wirey single coil bridge pickup and a fat humbucker in the neck, with the latter being rounder and ultimately more fuller sounding. Still, it was a wake-up call for me. Greg, the tuning down of the toms seemed to solve what i thought was a ringing issue - I knew myself the first rack tom sounded reasonable before I posted the clip. However, should I experiment with the reso heads on the toms to try and dial some ring back in?

I'll have to address the kick issue too - I did a little experiment after posting and tried to eq some 'click' into it, largely to no avail. The mic is inside the head but I'll angle it more towards the beater and see what that does. I see what you mean about the snare, I'll see if I can tighten up the wires or tighten the reso head to get some more snap out of it. Interestingly, I'm not loving the sound of it as is - I'm really missing a little of the crispness you get from the wires, so i might try micing the underside.
 
TelePaul said:
Thanks everyone for your input, in a hurry so can't quote individual contributions. Dinty and Greg, with regard to tuning, you guys are spot on. I tuned the second rack tom and floor tom down quite a bit, and not only are the intervals more pronounced, tuning down somehow sounds less flabby - same with the kick, tuning it down actually makes it sound tighter. Wiull post another sample tomorrow - I also had to check out 'George of the Jungle' on Youtube, we didn't get it here.

I'm not sure what's causing this, but it seems to run counter-intuitive to what I know about music generally - as best i can figure, it's akin to the difference between a wirey single coil bridge pickup and a fat humbucker in the neck, with the latter being rounder and ultimately more fuller sounding. Still, it was a wake-up call for me. Greg, the tuning down of the toms seemed to solve what i thought was a ringing issue - I knew myself the first rack tom sounded reasonable before I posted the clip. However, should I experiment with the reso heads on the toms to try and dial some ring back in?

I'll have to address the kick issue too - I did a little experiment after posting and tried to eq some 'click' into it, largely to no avail. The mic is inside the head but I'll angle it more towards the beater and see what that does. I see what you mean about the snare, I'll see if I can tighten up the wires or tighten the reso head to get some more snap out of it. Interestingly, I'm not loving the sound of it as is - I'm really missing a little of the crispness you get from the wires, so i might try micing the underside.
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Miking the underside is fine, but I'd keep working with the top mic and tuning. You can get a full, crisp snare sound with one mic. People do it all the time. Miking the underside is more a luxury than a necessity, and it can really screw you up if things aren't just right.

Like I've said before, I'm a big fan of tuning the toms to get that doppler pitch-bendy sound. It sounds great in a mix. Larger than life. Try it. If you don't like it you can always do something else. Tune the top head to it's lowest clean resonant pitch, and then tune the bottom head to a higher pitch. Experiment with it. When you find the sweet spot, the tom will sound deep and give a BAAAAAAooooooooow sound. I personally don't pay too much attention to intervals. Of course I don't want all the toms sounding the same, but they naturally won't if they're tuned correctly. I'd rather have the drum sound like it wants to sound than force a tone into it. Every drum has it's own resonant frequency. Different diamters and depths naturally have their own sound. Unless all your toms are the same size, getting good intervals should just happen naturally.
 
I really like the sound of the kit! Is that the natural room sound?
 
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