VS-880-EX mixdown to CD

L

larrypatterson

New member
I have been using a VS-880-EX for about a year and have 32 songs recorded on it. So far I have only "Mastered" them to analog tape, but want to put them on CD. I also badly need to back up my data and remove some of it, as the hard drive is almost full now. I am debating whether to buy a VS-CDR-II for data back up and CD burning, or use a Zip drive for back up and buy a CD recorder for mastering. I know the Roland VS-CDR-II Burner will put my songs on CD, but do that, first I would have to bounce my eight tracks down to two, which is a pain in the butt I don't really need. I want to retain the flexability of adjusting pan and volume of all tracks during mastering. Using a CDRW disk on a CD recorder I can re-do masters until I am satisfied. If everything is mixed down to two tracks, I have to go back and re-do that mix, before I can try an altered master. Plus, many of my songs have been "Pitch adjusted" from 44.10 to 46.79 (up one half step) and I don't know if the VS-CDR-II will see that as a change in sample rate (my guess is that it would), which would be a problem when the VS-880-EX builds the temp file it eventually transfers to the VS-CDR-II. I don't know if this would be a problem going to a CD recorder.

Reading the data on CD recorders like the Tascam CDRW700 and Marantz CDR500 or 6050 give me the impression that I could take the digital out from the VS-880-EX directly to the CD recorder and "Master" just as I have done to analog tape. This would allow me to retain control of all eight tracks during mastering, just as I have done when going to analog tape. However, other sources indicate that I would have to mix to DAT first, or use the analog inputs on the CD recorder. What is the real story? Can I master the digital output directly to a CD recorder? Or does it have to go to a DAT first? Also, would my "Pitch adjustment" bge a problem going to a CD recorder? I know they adjust input sample rate to 44.1. Would that negate my pitch adjustment (slow it back down)?

Also, is the Zip drive a satisfactory method of back up, or would I be better off with the VS-CDR-II for back up, even if I want to use a CD recorder for master (do I need to buy both?). Zip disks ain't cheep! CDs are.

I hope some of you guys out there can shed some light on this, so I can get on with it.

Thanks,


D. Larry Patterson
 
Ok... before I can answer, let's work on the terminology.... the usual process is - you record your tracks to a multi-track device of some kind; with your mixer, you MIX-DOWN those multiple tracks to a FINAL MIX (a stereo (or mono) left/right pair of signals) onto your MIXDOWN machine (could be DAT, CD-writer, MiniDisk, or analog cassette). That is your PRE-MASTERED version - if you don't feel there's anything more to do to it (MASTERING in terms of slight compression, level balancing, EQ tweaks), it is then considered to be your FINISHED VERSION of the song. If you DO feel it needs something else, you probably want to digitally (if possible) transfer the final mix to a DAW (or something like the Alesis Masterlink) and use certain plug-ins to accomplish the MASTERING process (see next...) From this step, your PRODUCTION version of the CD/cassette/whatever) is created.

MASTERING does not involve retaining control over individual tracks (that's only done in the MIXING process). What it does involve is the polishing of one or more final mixes of songs in terms of EQ, compression, level balance, and also the arranging of the songs into the desired sequence, setting fade-ins/outs, and balancing levels across the sequence of songs (slow tunes would naturally be slightly lower in level than hard, fast ones). Mastering technique is really an art form in itself, and requires above anything else, the ability to listen careful - having an accurate monitoring system is even more critical at this stage than even during tracking!

SO................... if this hasn't quite answered your question, can you please re-state your question so I can understand exactly what you are trying to accomplish?

Bruce Valeriani
Blue Bear Sound
 
Backup to zip

I do not own a CD burner yet, but I do use my Zip drive for backup. It allows my to backup all the tracks in a playable format. I could even do recording direcly to the zip. However, I prefer to just use it as a backup due to not wanting to over use the Zip disc since this is my only source of backup. When I need to work on a song that I transfered, I copy it back to the VS and do my recording there. I can then copy the modified song back to Zip. One limitation that I have found is that depending on how large your songs are, you may only be able to get one song per disk. This is not always the case but is mostly what I encounter. If you record a 3 minute song using all 8 tracks and the song is Optimized with no virtual tracks, you can probably get 2 songs per disk. If you go beyond that you will probably only be able to get one. One thing that I have done is to try to mix and match to make the most out of disk space since having a lot of Zip disks can get expensive. Hope this helps.

Joe
 
Thanks for the input. What I am trying to do is mix down the 8 tracks from the VS-880-EX to CD, rather than analog tape (as I have already done). I don't know if I can go directly from the VS-880-EX to a CD recorder like the Tascam CDRW700 or Marantz DR-6050, or if I have to put the mix on DAT first, a step I don't want to do. If I use the Roland VS-CDR-II to go (mix down) to CD, I have to first mix my 8 tracks to 2 on the VS-880-EX, which requires bouncing 6 to 2, mixing those new 2 tracks with the remaining 2 (of the original 8) which results in a 2 track mix for for the VS-880-EX to recognize, convert to a temp file, and transfer to CD. I can do this, but it sure seems like a lot of wasted steps, as far as I am concerned. I want to send my mixed 8 tracks directly to CD, just as I have been doing to analog tape. The question is, will a CD recorder accept the direct digital output from the VS-880-EX, just as an analog tape recorder will accept the analog signal?


D. Larry Patterson
 
Thanks J. C. That's good info. If I do use a Zip drive for back up I'll go with a 250. If you are only getting one or two songs per disk, I guess you are using a 100. Most of my songs are 70 - 85 MB, so I guess a 250 disk would hold two or three. At that rate, I already need 10 or 11 disks and at 9 bucks a throw, that's over a hundred bucks (with tax). As inexpensive as CDs are, even if I go with a CD burner for mix down, the VS-CDR-II might be a better (cheaper) source of back up in the long run.

D. Larry Patterson
 
Yes

Yes you can easily mix down to a stand alone burner. I have the 840EX and go to the stand alone burner via the digital optical out. You can do the same thing with the 880.

Wish
 
Ok... we're on the same wavelength - I looked at the feature set for the VS-880ex and it looks like you do have the ability within the unit to mix-down directly to a CD-R right within the machine, without having to go thru all the steps you describe. Unfortunately, without having access to the manual - I can't guide you thru the actual "HOW" part........... someone else's turn at the plate here!! :)

Bruce
 
Reply to Bruce and Wish 14

Wish 14,

Thanks, you cleared up the question about going directly to a CD burner from the VS-880-EX. Looks like I can do what I want to do.

Bruce,

The VS-CDR-II is an outboard accessory for the VS-880-EX. It will burn a CD that can be played on a standerd CD player. However, it only recognizes 2 tracks (users choice) on the VS-880-EX to record to CD. It converts these two tracks to a temp file, burns the CD, and deletes the temp file. (I have read the manuals on both units). What I am trying to avoid doing is bouncing all 8 tracks down to 2 on the VS-880-EX before transfering to CD. From what Wish 14 says, I can go directly from the VS-880-EX to a CD recorder. Therefore, it looks like I need to buy a CD recorder for mix down, and a 250 Zip drive for back up. It will be a few more bucks, but it will eliminate the need for all that track bouncing required by the VS-CDR-II.

Now the question is: which CD recorder. The Tascam CDRW700 and Marantz DR-650 both look good on paper (got good reviews), but I have no experience with either one of them, or any other CD recorder. Does anyone have advice on CD recorders?


D. Larry Patterson
 
The thing I don't understand is what you mean by "avoiding bouncing to 2 tracks" - if you mixdown, you HAVE to be mixing-down to 2 tracks at some point, to somewhere....... after that, those 2 tracks get burned to CD??? Am I missing something again here???

Oh wait a sec - I see, you want to retain the 8 tracks, mix-down to 2 other tracks, then burn the CD from those 2 tracks, all on the same machine. Can't be done unless you can mix-down to those temp tracks you were talking about. I see your complication now, I would simplify the whole thing by using an external mixdown unit myself - or something like the Masterlink - which is the mixdown unit/cd-writer combined (mixdown to its internal harddrive, then the CD gets burned from that.) Plus you've got a bit of mastering processing there if you need it...

Good luck!
Bruce :)
 
The 250 mb Zip is a good idea. I wish they had had them when I got mine. As far as the cd burner, no matter what unit you choose, it will be like recording your songs to tape (2 tracks). The only difference will be that they are transfered using the digital I/O (S/PDIF). One thing to keep in mind with CD Burners, make sure you get one that you can turn off the copy protection if you want to be able to make copies of your cd's.

Again, you will need to use the Zip drive to get a copy of your songs in 8 track format. The cd's will not do the trick. The only other backup option is using a dat machine. this to me is an expensive way to backup your songs.
 
JC and Bruce

Thanks, JC. That's exactly what I want to do. The CD recorder is the way to go.

Bruce,

You now see my problem. The Roland accessory burner would cause me to bounce tracks by shuffling back and forth between vertual tracks in at least two additional re-mixing steps: instrumental tracks 1-6 -> 7 & 8 (new vertual tracks) ; move the vocals on 7 & 8 to new vertual tracks; then mix the new instrumental mix on 7 & 8 and the vocals to 2 tracks. Each step causing me to re adjust (re mix) everything. Using a CD recorder allows me to keep the mix I have already worked so hard to develope, and put it on CD without having to screw it up.

The CD burner is the way to go.
 
I record on a Tascam MSR-16 thru a Toft ATB-16 console & then take the stereo outs of the Toft direct to my Tascam CDRW-700....sounds great , no problems.
 
I've been Messing around with a VS880EX for quite a while. I tried to go the Audio-CD-Burner route and IMHO it is to be avoided! The CDs (Audio CD-R) are REALLY expensive unless you use a VERY expensive burner (and they will be hard to get, soon). In the EX Manual, it is stated, that there is a possibility of backuping to DAT and I thought this would work to CD, too. It did one single time! In my opinion, it is inevitable to buy a SCSI CD burner, but you CAN get cheaper ones than the originals. Once you start recording more complex stuff, you'd have to use more than one ZIP to backup - that's kinda ridiculous. Try to get a used Plextor CD burner, the newer ones will most probably work for your OS (you MIGHT to have to perform an update even with the original CDRIII). The Money you save for the burner and the ZIP-disks could even be used for a second VS that U use as a cheapass Alesis Masterlink.
If that burning CDs takes too much time for you (it DOES take time!), why not hink of something like a Zoom H4n as your Recorder; you can record MP3 and WAV, the Quality is OK, and you have sth to fix ideas...

That one should work (depending on your OS I think --- and you need a SCSI housing and cables, and...):

Plextor Plexwriter 8 20 PX R820TI Internal CD R Burner SCSI Drive | eBay

The only prob is that you might be searching for CDRs that fit the burner for quite a while; IMHO Verbatim are most likely to work, but depends from the CD-writer Firmware (CDR manufacturer code...)
 
...and try to look over at vsplanet; it's getting more and more quiet, but for VS, it is a good ressource (esp. if you do searches)...
 
volltreffer said:
...and try to look over at vsplanet; it's getting more and more quiet, but for VS, it is a good ressource (esp. if you do searches)...
Click to expand...


I am looking for my neighbor but there is a kit to replace the Hard drive with an SD card kit. $34 on E-bay (WO card) and it uses the HD cradle. Anyone tried this?
 
HA! I had a VS880EX once. I wish i had the option of an SD card kit! Would have made getting stuff of that machine much easier.
 
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