Volume of recording

[Neophyte]

I am using Sonar (but this also happened in ProAudio8)

I have XP (same thing happened in 98se)

I have the new Gina card (again, same symptoms with the Darla)

My trax seem to appear strong through the meters.

I have decent volume in the recording phase going in.

I have half the volume (at best) on the recording itself in replay.

I know I could be clearer about many issues here. What kind of set up. Type of equipment, etc. I will be happy to answer any and all questions I can.

I don't think it is an equipment issue. Personally, I think I have the damn thing set up wrong.


If anyone has any suggestions, please, I beg of you. I have put off recording anything because the reproduction quality sucks. a And you can't hear it without turning your mp3 player up to about 3/4 levels.



Neo
(PS I did do a search and didn't see anything that really addressed my issue. I may be in the wrong forum. If so please re-direct me!)

 

[Torpid-x]

Hows the volume on the wav itself?

the level you monitor at has nothing to do with the level you record. if your meter reads a strong signal at playback, your ok. if you get a weak playback volume, you can always increase your recording input levels. Just don't bring your levels to clipping. record a few short measures to try to get your wav file playback between -1 and 0 at peak.

sometimes you can't trust the meters. trial and error is next.

 

[Neophyte]

Hows the volume on the wav itself?

Minimal at best. That is the low level I am speaking of. It plays back like I am standing about 20 feet from the mike.

the level you monitor at has nothing to do with the level you record. if your meter reads a strong signal at playback, your ok. if you get a weak playback volume, you can always increase your recording input levels. Just don't bring your levels to clipping. record a few short measures to try to get your wav file playback between -1 and 0 at peak.

sometimes you can't trust the meters. trial and error is next.

Let me try to set some things around differently and I will get back to you.


thanks,

Neo

 

[Neophyte]

I pulled everything out and plugged my shure sm57 directly into the Gina break-out box.

I have nothing.

When I playback the recorded wave file the volume levels are such that I have to turn my speakers up to 90% of their capacity. (all other wave files like sound themes and such are played back at extremely loud volumes when doing this so it isn't the sound card or the speakers)

I literally have to yell into the mike to get any kind of volume and it is still negligable.

My Sonar setting are maxed and I have finished a Audio Equipment examination.


Damn!


Neo

 

[Torpid-x]

I've never miced, but you may need a mic preamp, if your mic needs phantom power (so I've read) not sure how to explain it myself, I'm sure you can get answers in the microphone section of the board.

 

[audiohead]

Mic into a line in? Man, you must be joking!

No, shure sm57 doesn't need phantom power since it's a dymanic type.

 

[Neophyte]

okay, fine.

I understand that I need some sort of amplification.

I have a mackie 1402 and will try to fanagle a way to strip it down to just the mackie, the shure and the gina.

BTW I checked out the gina console and saw that the input levels were extremely low. I assume this is because of the low output of the mike itself. But shouldn't Sonar act as a "pre-amp" in a record only situation? I thought that was what the "console" and effects were for in this package.

I guess I still have too much to learn. *sigh*



Thanks for the comments. Any more would be appreciated


Neo

 

[ChuckU]

Where are the levels on your Windows mixer? This is an unfortunate, but necessary part of the signal chain, however it could be part of your problem. Bring your levels up on the Gina also. I use my 57 into my Mackie, into my Delta. Go into the Mackie pre, out the INSERT (cleanest signal, least knobs to fiddle with - for now) into the Gina. The trim knob on the mackie will give you nice control over the 57's input. This is what I do.

 

[dachay2tnr]

What Chuck said

The Mackie will work fine as your preamp. As he said, come out of the channel inserts (or direct outs if you have them) into your sound card, and use the trim/gain knob to set your recording levels. (BTW, if you use channel inserts, I think you need to insert the plug only halfway - i.e., to the first click. It should be covered in your manual).

One point of disagreement though, Chuck. AFAIK the windows mixer (or the mixer supplied with your sound card, or your tracking software) have no role in the strength of the signal. We have a similar debate going on in a thread in the Newbies forum, but I'm sticking to my guns for now. Recording signal level is established entirely by your upstream equipment. Once it hits the A/D converters of the sound card there is no further control over it.

 

[Torpid-x]

One point of disagreement though, Chuck. AFAIK the windows mixer (or the mixer supplied with your sound card, or your tracking software) have no role in the strength of the signal. We have a similar debate going on in a thread in the Newbies forum, but I'm sticking to my guns for now. Recording signal level is established entirely by your upstream equipment. Once it hits the A/D converters of the sound card there is no further control over it.

The Windows mixer has 2 sections, a playback or monitoring (no effect on recording) and a recording section, it absolutely, positively effects the signal going to the track. that's what it's there for. sorry to be so blunt, but it's true.

 

[ChuckU]

Mike,
No real argument about the software controlling input. Kind of makes sense the way you explained it. I am admittedly weak on my Delta 1010 routing software, too. You & I gotta talk this out some day that I can formulate the right questions....

On the Mackie - 1/4" unbalanced jacks should go all the way into the insert if you want to bypass the main out of the mixer (I do). Halfway in and the signal goes to the main out as well as thru the insert. It all depends on how you want to monitor it.
I run my drum mics into the Mackie and I want discrete outs from the mixer to the 1010. I have Nothing coming off the main out.

 

[JPlush76]

i have the EXACT same setup actually

sonar with the echo gina input system...

you just need a mic preamp, I have more power than I can handle with my mic/preamp combo

 

[dachay2tnr]

Chuck - I thought the half-insert vs full-insert had to do with the direction of the signal flow. Since it's an "insert" I thought it normally functioned as an input to the channel, and therefore when fully inserted the signal flow was "in". However, when using it as a the feed source to a sound card you need the flow to be "out", and you managed this by suing the half-insert technique. However, my Mackie has direct outs, and therefore I have no first-hand experience, and will defer to your hand-ons knowledge. Now can you explain why the Sox can't beat the Braves?

Torpid - You can be as blunt as you'd like, but you might also want to be right. Unless there is a pre-amp in the circuit, I don't see how it is physically possible to control the signal strength through software. When the analog signal hits the sound card it is digitized. If the signal is clipping (>0db) at that point, you are going to digitize a clipped signal. You need to explain to me how lowering a software fader is going to compensate for the missing (clipped) data? You can lower the fader to your heart's content, the data is gone. And therefore, how can the fader be controlling the strength of the signal. If it were actually controlling the signal strength, you should be able to prevent the clip, but you can't because it's already been digitized.

Now if you happen to be speaking of the *mic* input on something like an SB Live card, I can accept that maybe the mixer is controlling the cards pre-amp. In that case I can understand how the software is controlling the signal. But if you are speaking about the *Line In* port, or a better grade card such as Neophyte's Gina or Chuck's Delta (which lack pre-amps), then sorry but I'm from Missouri. . .

(actually New Jersey, but close enough )

 

[ChuckU]

Mike, I'm heading out the door, but I'll check my Mackie manual (the Mackie website should explain this stuff also).

Sox/Braves - wrong team left Boston.

Mondesi - Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Torpid-x]

Sad but true, yes I use a SB live, all inputs are run through the mixers recording section where you choose which input you are recording from (only one at a time with factory drivers) and set the input level. The level you set directly reflects the level that gets recorded to the track.

I'm no rocket scientist, but heres the best way I can explain how it's "physically" (virtually) possible

a signal that is clipping will record to a wav file with the data missing as you put it. I'll say with the peaks cut off or compressed, how extreme depends on how much over 0 your signal is. this produces a track that sounds about the same as using a compressor to the point of distortion and above. in fact it's really the same thing, physically.

the level can be trimmed in the digital form (post A/D conversion(virtually)) before it gets to the track in question, my guess is it uses the same software engines that control the volume anywhere else in the digital form (my guitar processor has a virtual master volume in the digital form to prevent internal clipping and an analog pre-amp volume)

there's also analog clipping, where the input level is over-powering the sound cards (or whatever the signal is going into) capacity, this is the type of clipping I think you are talking about. Of course you have to have this under control before getting to the digital clipping, that's just common sence.

Now the point is, if the windows mixer or drivers recording level is turned down to 30%, the track is only recieving 30% of the signal your putting into the sound card. that's why you have to check the Windows mixer level as a troubleshooting step when low levels are in question.

p.s. this is really important when your recording source is internal
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I AM RIGHT (unless the soundcard does'nt tap into the recording mixer)

where about in NJ?

 

[Neophyte]

Here is what has occured.......

I pulled everything off the mackie.

I connected the mackie to the Gina and my shure to the mackie (1st channel)

Left the mackie from the mains to the gina.

(tested mains with Event Powered Monitors PS6's usually in the control room outs)

same results. Extremely low recording levels even though the meters and slides and pots all said max.

Even went in to change the SB settings in the wondows recording settings and it didn't change a thing. (SB records halfway decent with the little stand mike I have for chat)

Gina is still a low output no-go.

Finally I go to the echo site and re-install the drivers.

Didn't help. (I still think I have a configuration issue with Cakewalk to Echo interfacce)

Echo suggested bringing the mike directly in and then connect my power monitors directly to the Gina outs bypassing the mixer.

This works.

I can get a return sound volume that is equivalent to the input.

For now it is good. I have a sneaking suspicion that I am looking for something that doesn't exist or that I have to find the proper configuration of this damn set up. But it is late again.

I have all weekend to make my toys finally work for me rather than have me working for it!


Thanks for the help ya'll and keep the suggestions coming.


Neo

 

[dachay2tnr]

Obviously something is not right here.

I connected the mackie to the Gina and my shure to the mackie (1st channel)

If the mackie was connected to the Gina via the Main Outs, did you assign Channel 1 to the Mains (i.e,, depress the L/R button on Channel 1)? Why didn't you connect via the Direct Outs or Channel Inserts?

Also did you set the gain properly on the 1st Channel (i.e., the Trim knob)? I find that for recording I need to set the trim a little hotter than the procedure given in the Mackie manual to get a good hot signal level.

Echo suggested bringing the mike directly in and then connect my power monitors directly to the Gina outs bypassing the mixer.

This makes no sense at all. To my knowledge the Gina has no preamps. If you connect the mic directly to the Gina you do not have a pre-amp, and should get a VERY weak signal.


*** You know, something just occurred to me. What type plug is on the end of your mic cord? Is it the 3-prong XLR connection, or is it a straght 1/4" connection. The reason I ask is that I'm pretty sure the Mackie pre's are only common to the XLR connection. The 1/4" jack is a Line Connection and it assumes a line signal, and therefore bypasses the preamp. If you are connecting to the Line In jacks on your Mackie, this might explain the problem - there's no pre-amps, and therefore a very weak signal.

Just a thought, but I figured I'd better ask.

 

[Neophyte]

Obviously something is not right here.
If the mackie was connected to the Gina via the Main Outs, did you assign Channel 1 to the Mains (i.e,, depress the L/R button on Channel 1)? Why didn't you connect via the Direct Outs or Channel Inserts?

I don't have any of those items on my board.

see my mackie here

I put channel 1 with the trim at at least 3 oclock. the only buttons I have on chaneel one are the high cut, mute(alt 3-4) and the solo buttonds.

Also did you set the gain properly on the 1st Channel (i.e., the Trim knob)? I find that for recording I need to set the trim a little hotter than the procedure given in the Mackie manual to get a good hot signal level. This makes no sense at all. To my knowledge the Gina has no preamps. If you connect the mic directly to the Gina you do not have a pre-amp, and should get a VERY weak signal.

I misspoke.

The shure into the mackie the makie into the Gina the Gina back out to the powered moitors. Sorry.

Again trim on about 3/4 up.

*** You know, something just occurred to me. What type plug is on the end of your mic cord? Is it the 3-prong XLR connection, or is it a straght 1/4" connection. The reason I ask is that I'm pretty sure the Mackie pre's are only common to the XLR connection. The 1/4" jack is a Line Connection and it assumes a line signal, and therefore bypasses the preamp. If you are connecting to the Line In jacks on your Mackie, this might explain the problem - there's no pre-amps, and therefore a very weak signal.

Just a thought, but I figured I'd better ask.

This did help. Sorta.

Now I have even stronger signal going in (almost deafened myself when I turned the mackie back on after I changed the mike chord!) Yet the playback is so quiet unless I come directly out of the Gina box and into the powered monitors. I assumed that the computer speakers were basically the same thing as the PS6's except lower quality amplifiers.

shouldn't it at least make wave files that are at the same volume that I am recording at?

I sing or speak into the mike and record. The playback is NIL. I make it a wave file and the only way to hear it is to max the volume of Winamp AND the computer volume.

Could it be possible that the Gina is a bad card? It won't do me any good to look for support on the holiday. Oh, well.


thanks for everyones help
Neo

 

[ChuckU]

Chuck - I thought the half-insert vs full-insert had to do with the direction of the signal flow. Since it's an "insert" I thought it normally functioned as an input to the channel, and therefore when fully inserted the signal flow was "in". However, when using it as a the feed source to a sound card you need the flow to be "out", and you managed this by suing the half-insert technique. However, my Mackie has direct outs, and therefore I have no first-hand experience, and will defer to your hand-ons knowledge.

Mike,
Just wanted to confirm this for myself and if it can benefit anyone else...I use the second option in the attached graphic. This frees up inputs 5-12 to be sent to the main (or alt 3-4) for monitoring while keeping the signals directly from the mic pre's direct and clean.

Glad it only took me 10 days to get back to this

 

[dachay2tnr]

and you managed this by suing the half-insert technique

Having rethought this, I don't think it's a good idea to sue the half-insert technique. I once tried the half-insert technique on my former wife, and she later sued me for child support. But I don't really think I can sue the half-insert technique to get my money back.


You might, however, consider using the half-insert technique as Chuck suggests.