vocal preamp upgrade

[dickiefunk]

People who've been doing this a lot more years than I have tell me that I will notice a much bigger improvement by upgrading my mic than I will by upgrading the pre. I think I may take that route and try a better mic with the pres I now have. If I'm still not getting the sound I want, then the preamp will be next. So, my AT3035 I think, will be the first thing to look to upgrade. Then maybe a second hand MPA and upgrade the tubes. I've heard amazing tracks recorded with those. A couple of talented AE's, who's ears I tend to trust, use these 'cheap' pres with great results. I'm definitely not anywhere close to being able to spend $500 on just a pre right now... probably not anytime soon. I think I'll get some noticeable improvement just by getting a mic that suits my voice better....after that I might consider the MPA...or maybe the GAP pre73..

I have an MK-319 and ART MPA Gold. You definitely won't get siblance with this combo. I've tried the Heil PR-35 and really didn't like it. It was very thin and harsh sounding.
I noticed that my M-Audio pres can sound a little too bright on the top end and my ART smooths it out really well (haven't upgraded tubes yet either).
I've been really impressed with the ART MPA Gold paired with either the Oktava MK-319 and MXL v67g.

 

[jaz49]

I have an MK-319 and ART MPA Gold. You definitely won't get siblance with this combo. I've tried the Heil PR-35 and really didn't like it. It was very thin and harsh sounding.
I noticed that my M-Audio pres can sound a little too bright on the top end and my ART smooths it out really well (haven't upgraded tubes yet either).
I've been really impressed with the ART MPA Gold paired with either the Oktava MK-319 and MXL v67g.

That's a good recommendation for the MPA for sure. I think it's my Aphex pre that is contributing to some of the sibilance. How does the v67g compare to the Oktava? The mxl is a super affordable mic and if it's comparable to the 319 I'll pick one up. I'm surprised you found your PR35 to sound thin. Mine is warmer and thicker than the AT3035. It sounds really great aside from the sibilance. But, you really have to be careful with the placement...sing directly into it close up, and it can get harsh and super sibilant. YMMV again.

 

[jaz49]

The Telefunken M-80 is a very nice mic. I don't find it esssy, but I'm not a particularly esssy singer.

The RE-10 is an RE-15 that didn't meet EV's specs. The RE-11 is an RE-16 that didn't meet EV's specs. Not bad mics (I have 2 RE-10s), but they won't necessarily sound like an RE-15 or RE-16 (since they didn't meet spec). As a result, I wouldn't necessarily judge the sound of an RE-16 by the sound of an RE-10.

The SM7 is another mic to consider.

Good point about the RE 10. I thought it was pretty much identical to the RE 15. How does the M80 compare to the EV dynamics or the SM7? I found the RE 10 to be pretty dull and boring compared to the PR35....or even my old Senn. e835. But that mic was also real sibilant due to the presence peak.

 

[Rust E-Z]

When I called the MK319 A BIT sibilant I really did mean just a tineeeey bit. I was using a pretty cheesy pre at the time though and the guy I was/am recording was pretty essy. I found it interesting that the Heil was essy just because the mics it's competing with are not known for being so. Plus It's hard to imagine a LDD being essy.(but my ignorance knows no bounds) I would have to venture that if the re-10 didn't do it for you the re-16 wouldn't have much more to offer. Vocals are really tricky though, I mean every voice is different. Not just a little different like the subtle difference between like models of guitars with different grain tops but really different. Top engineers will audition multple mics before finding the right one for vox over and over again. Vox is just tricky like that.
Anyway for a flash of a second it seemed like your voice might have been similer to the guy I work with,(the re16 is like magic with him) but looks unlikley now. I got nuthin.
I will try my mk319 with this guy with my current pres though and see how that works.
Good luck I am anxious to see what finally works for you.

 

[jaz49]

When I called the MK319 A BIT sibilant I really did mean just a tineeeey bit. I was using a pretty cheesy pre at the time though and the guy I was/am recording was pretty essy. I found it interesting that the Heil was essy just because the mics it's competing with are not known for being so. Plus It's hard to imagine a LDD being essy.(but my ignorance knows no bounds) I would have to venture that if the re-10 didn't do it for you the re-16 wouldn't have much more to offer. Vocals are really tricky though, I mean every voice is different. Not just a little different like the subtle difference between like models of guitars with different grain tops but really different. Top engineers will audition multple mics before finding the right one for vox over and over again. Vox is just tricky like that.
Anyway for a flash of a second it seemed like your voice might have been similer to the guy I work with,(the re16 is like magic with him) but looks unlikley now. I got nuthin.
I will try my mk319 with this guy with my current pres though and see how that works.
Good luck I am anxious to see what finally works for you.

If I could find a good second hand 319, I think I'd grab it! The 219 I had was really smooth and natural sounding....sounded exactly like I hear myself, only better. The AT3035 never did much for me, but I was able to get some decent recordings with it using some digital magic. For now I'm dealing with the S's as best I can with my PR35 since it sounds warmer and more flattering than the 3035. I have to resort to manually editing out the real nasty S's and T's, etc. I probably need a better pre as well, since I think the Aphex 107 is just adding to the problem. You said that vox is tricky and you are definitely right on that! I find that a mic will work on one song and not work at all on a different song...with the same singer!

As far as a LDD being essy, I think part of it is I'm singing closer to the mic than I am with a condenser. I don't sing at all loud, and I have to get pretty close and really crank the gain in order to get a strong enough signal. Plus the PR35 DOES have a bit of a presence peak...not a big one, but it's not as flat as a RE15 or 20.

 

[pohaku]

Good point about the RE 10. I thought it was pretty much identical to the RE 15. How does the M80 compare to the EV dynamics or the SM7? I found the RE 10 to be pretty dull and boring compared to the PR35....or even my old Senn. e835. But that mic was also real sibilant due to the presence peak.

The M-80 sounds more condenser-like than the typical dynamic mic. It is a hotter mic than the EV dynamics and than the SM7. I don't find it prone to sibilance, even though it does have a presence peak. It has a Tab Funkenwerk output transformer. Not a lot amount of proximity effect.

http://www.m80mic.com/

 

[jaz49]

That M80 sounds interesting, but I read on another forum that it's brighter than the PR35, so I'll probably wait til I can do some more research on it. What effect does the transformer have on the sound? A guy on another forum swears that the Heil PR20 is the best vocal mic of all the Heil dynamics...not the PR35, which he didn't like. I'm tempted to give that one a try. If you believe the PR from Heil it has a very natural/unhyped frequency response. Then again, for like $100 bucks, the v67g looks very tempting.

 

[pohaku]

Personally, if I was going to buy one good all purpose mic, to be used primarily for vocals but usable on lots of other things, I'd just get an SM7. Mine have been used so much that I now have three of them. You do need a preamp that will give you at least 60db of quiet gain, but for the money (and even regardless of the money), it's one of the best deals out there. I find it generally more usable, and better on more voices, than my U87. I've bought all of mine used - 2 for $200 each and a relatively new SM7b for $275 including shipping. Pretty hard to beat IMHO. I also have a v67b (black version instead of green) that I bought for cheap when Mars Music went down. Virtually never use it as there is always something else that sounds better. I'll grant that it sounds OK for as cheap as it is, but I agree with others here that you are best off saving and buying something you are likely to keep forever, rather than get on the tradeup treadmill.

 

[MOFO Pro]

Please tell me you're using a pop filter...

 

[Fishmed]

That M80 sounds interesting, but I read on another forum that it's brighter than the PR35, so I'll probably wait til I can do some more research on it. What effect does the transformer have on the sound? A guy on another forum swears that the Heil PR20 is the best vocal mic of all the Heil dynamics...not the PR35, which he didn't like. I'm tempted to give that one a try. If you believe the PR from Heil it has a very natural/unhyped frequency response. Then again, for like $100 bucks, the v67g looks very tempting.

The v67g is pretty good mic right out of the box. I did a comparison of that mic to the BLUE Mouse and the tones where very close. The Mouse was much more open. I am hoping once I sen my MXL to Mr. Joly, it will have that more open sound.

I have been pleased with the Heil mics too.

 

[jaz49]

Ha ha...yes a pop filter! Those S's and T's go thru it like it's not even there! For my style of singing...which is really laid back...I'd need a pre with more than 60dB of quiet gain with an SM-7...otherwise I would have purchased one already after reading probably several hundred recommendations here and on Gearslutz.com! But still, I think a good condenser can be purchased for the same amount of money I'd spend on a SM7 or RE 20...something like ADK Hamburg or Oktava 319. The only reason I mentioned the PR20 is that an AE on another forum told me he feels it's a better vocal mic than the PR35, which I already like other than the sibilance. I'll probably pass on the v67g though...and take the advise given. I'd probably buy it and wind up wanting to sell it and get something like a 319. For now I'm dealing with the S's and T's with manual editing where needed. You'll hear the PR35 if you play the first and fourth songs on my MySpace page. I think it suits my vocal style.

dickiefunk: When you tried the PR35 did you have the high pass engaged all the way in the far left(I think) position? That's the only way I can imagine that mic sounding thin.

 

[Mike Keith]

IMHO most outboard pres that are in the $350.00 (New) area are not much better than what's in mid level consoles.
Different? Yes...It's about volume..
If it's a transformerless pre then it should be less, much less.
First I would rent some pres and see which ones you REALLY like and save up...
One GOOD pre is a good investment IMHO, and can use it for ANY mic or source..

 

[jaz49]

IMHO most outboard pres that are in the $350.00 (New) area are not much better than what's in mid level consoles.

Are you talking 'per channel'? My Aphex pre originally cost probably close to $600 for two channels. I got mine used for $85....just goes to prove that "you get what you pay for".

There's such a big divergence in opinion on this issue that it can be very confusing to someone fairly new to recording. Some people tell me...'get a RNP and you'll notice a BIG improvement" (they cost $250 per channel). Others tell me that I'll notice a much bigger improvement with a better mic...and that a new pre under $500 per channel will not make a noticeable improvement. O.K so which is it.... .I really want to hear a big difference if I'm going to lay out even $400. That's a fair amount of change to lay out if you're only going to notice a very small improvement. Unfortunately, I don't have any way to rent a pre to try it out. I'd love to try something like a Grace, if I did.

 

[CoolCat]

The AT3035 never did much for me, but I was able to get some decent recordings with it using some digital magic. For now I'm dealing with the S's as best I can with my PR35 since it sounds warmer and more flattering than the 3035. I have to resort to manually editing out the real nasty S's and T's, etc. I probably need a better pre as well, since I think the Aphex 107 is just adding to the problem. You said that vox is tricky and you are definitely right on that! I find that a mic will work on one song and not work at all on a different song...with the same singer!

As far as a LDD being essy, I think part of it is I'm singing closer to the mic than I am with a condenser. I don't sing at all loud, and I have to get pretty close and really crank the gain in order to get a strong enough signal. Plus the PR35 DOES have a bit of a presence peak...not a big one, but it's not as flat as a RE15 or 20.

i agree with the 3035 comment, i never got it right either.

i came across a channel strip once and its been here ever since.
it has the desssssssshher ssttsttttssttt,
channel strip also has the preamp, the eq, the compressor.

my small exp. is cheap pre's are noisy, and like you mentioned with a low gain mic you have to crank them up making it all the worsshhhhhhssssshshhhhhshssshhhhhe....unless you like that sound. Its all art, right. .. your right the SM7, SM57 and the like need a lot of gain, especially if your a whisper quiet singer, that makes sense..

reading this a lot of your goal seems to get rid of the SS's and T's...

for the 3035 there's probably some great tracks done with them so, what does that say? Maybe someone with a good setup for the 3035 can post something...

good lucksssssssssssssss

 

[Fishmed]

Are you talking 'per channel'? My Aphex pre originally cost probably close to $600 for two channels. I got mine used for $85....just goes to prove that "you get what you pay for".

There's such a big divergence in opinion on this issue that it can be very confusing to someone fairly new to recording. Some people tell me...'get a RNP and you'll notice a BIG improvement" (they cost $250 per channel). Others tell me that I'll notice a much bigger improvement with a better mic...and that a new pre under $500 per channel will not make a noticeable improvement. O.K so which is it.... .I really want to hear a big difference if I'm going to lay out even $400. That's a fair amount of change to lay out if you're only going to notice a very small improvement. Unfortunately, I don't have any way to rent a pre to try it out. I'd love to try something like a Grace, if I did.

From my experience, changing mic will make a marginal improvement. Upgrading to a good clean mic pre will make a bigger improvement. Once you have a better mic pre, then you will notice the differences more in the selection of your mics. To really upgrade from where you are now, $500 per chan is about the norm to move to the next level; otherwise, you might be swapping from one set of issues to another set.

 

[jaz49]

i agree with the 3035 comment, i never got it right either.

for the 3035 there's probably some great tracks done with them so, what does that say? Maybe someone with a good setup for the 3035 can post something...

good lucksssssssssssssss

I played around with my old RE15 last night. Definitely less essy than the PR35 and I was singing real close with 60dB gain...so it's not just my singing and my preamp....it's the PR35. I also had a mk219 that was not essy. I heard some tracks done with the 3035 that sounded pretty good, but the guys voice and singing style was very different than mine. They were done through a pretty decent pre if I remember correctly. They always tell me...'a mic that will work for one vocalist will be all wrong for another.'...and that's even with mics costing way more than a 3035.
BTW, the RE15 has a very similar sound to the 3035...both are pretty flat and boring.

 

[jaz49]

To really upgrade from where you are now, $500 per chan is about the norm to move to the next level; otherwise, you might be swapping from one set of issues to another set.

So you're saying something like the Grace 101 would be a big step up, but an ART MPA or RNP not much improvement. I definitely can't afford to waste money on something that won't make much difference, and I think that's what a lot of folks do when they're starting out. They go by reviews by so called experts and buy something like a Studio Projects vtb-1 only to find that the pre's on their interface sound better. I actually did just that

 

[Mike Keith]

Are you talking 'per channel'? My Aphex pre originally cost probably close to $600 for two channels. I got mine used for $85....just goes to prove that "you get what you pay for".

There's such a big divergence in opinion on this issue that it can be very confusing to someone fairly new to recording. Some people tell me...'get a RNP and you'll notice a BIG improvement" (they cost $250 per channel). Others tell me that I'll notice a much bigger improvement with a better mic...and that a new pre under $500 per channel will not make a noticeable improvement. O.K so which is it.... .I really want to hear a big difference if I'm going to lay out even $400. That's a fair amount of change to lay out if you're only going to notice a very small improvement. Unfortunately, I don't have any way to rent a pre to try it out. I'd love to try something like a Grace, if I did.

I look at gear from the real parts cost, if I was starting out today I would be confused as well...
One thing I agree with is a GOOD pre is more versatile than one good mic...
Some expect to hear a radical difference in high end gear, that is not always the case...
But you also can not have even a small amount of gear with out spending several hundred dollars min.. several thousands is more like it...

There is a good reason why good studios charge a good rate, $$$...
IM not sure why people consider the RNP to be even mid level...
It has its place...

 

[Mike Keith]

So you're saying something like the Grace 101 would be a big step up, but an ART MPA or RNP not much improvement. I definitely can't afford to waste money on something that won't make much difference, and I think that's what a lot of folks do when they're starting out. They go by reviews by so called experts and buy something like a Studio Projects vtb-1 only to find that the pre's on their interface sound better. I actually did just that

But what kind of Sound are you after, that reduces the choices to a smaller group.
A warm sound?
Fast/detailed?
Clean/transparent?
Thick/fat?
A little of 2 of the above?
Ect...

Let me add for more tid bit, I think you will find that the better gear has a FAR better resale value than the lower end gear, the higher end will problably go up...IM referring to Mics, pres, compresors ect, NOT recording platforms..

 

[RRuskin]

So you're saying something like the Grace 101 would be a big step up, but an ART MPA or RNP not much improvement. I definitely can't afford to waste money on something that won't make much difference, and I think that's what a lot of folks do when they're starting out. They go by reviews by so called experts and buy something like a Studio Projects vtb-1 only to find that the pre's on their interface sound better. I actually did just that

With respect to the RNP, I beg to differ. The RNP is a great mic preamp and is in a whole different league than the ART or anything else in it's price range.

In the spirit of full disclosure: I am an authorized FMR dealer but I wouldn't be if the products weren't good enough to use on my own productions.