Vocal Editing and such

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Kingofpain678

Kingofpain678

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Do any of you have any articles, tips, primers or guides to editing vocals?
I've noticed in alot of songs I listen to there are more than just one vocal going... It's obvious that they are layered but my problem is figuring out how they are layered...
I don't know if they're doing octaves or certain harmonys or what so any sort of help in that department would be great because TBH I don't really know anything about vocals... I'm willing to learn though ;)

-KoP
 
feel very hypocritical, because I was speaking very differently in another thread literally a few minutes ago.

But this is where theory could really help out -

but all in all, it depends on what kind of sound you're looking for. If it's a Beatles type sound, they usually sing harmonies.
 
Opivy said:
feel very hypocritical, because I was speaking very differently in another thread literally a few minutes ago.

But this is where theory could really help out -

but all in all, it depends on what kind of sound you're looking for. If it's a Beatles type sound, they usually sing harmonies.
Click to expand...

I was afraid of that... :(
I know I should learn theory... It just seems like a huge pain in the ass.

What I was hoping for is possibly the different kinds of layering used in modern rock/hard rock specifically and how they are achieved.
It seems easiest to tell if it's just octaves but it seems that there are other kinds of harmonies that I just can't put my finger on that makes vocals so much more amazing and powerful than a single dry vocal track.
 
True, but I don't think you need to learn theory necessarily to sing harmonies. I have a friend who is able to harmonize a long with me greatly, although he knows nothing about theory or even how to play any instrument.

He has listened and loved classic rock his entire life though - (didn't I mention he's actually a pretty good singer?)

I think if you were to listen to a few songs with just 2 part harmonies - and really try to listen to them seperately, you would understand what is going on better.

Pay attention to the main melody and know what it's doing. Then try and pay attention to the second part, and notice the difference. this is a good example I think


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4HLKoFum-4

really listen at the parts "If I give my heart" and - "from the very start" and so on.

I think you'll get what I'm saying.


edit-

I also forgot to mention, My friend was showing me something by Antares that will duplicate your voice, and you can change the intervals from there (I think you can have up to 4 voices). You need to know the key of the song - but I'm sure someone could help you figure that out.
 
There are harmonizer devices - as mentioned, you need to program them for the key and/or intervals, you will need to know some music theory for that.
As also mentioned, you don't need to know theory to do harmonies, but you do need a good ear and talent. If you never sang in high school chorus, you missed out on the chance to learn techniques.
If you're trying to do it yourself, record a main vocal track, then practice singing along with yourself. Listen to recorded music and try to sing the harmony parts. If you can't pick the harmony line out, you probably need to take some lessons.
 
Opivy said:
True, but I don't think you need to learn theory necessarily to sing harmonies. I have a friend who is able to harmonize a long with me greatly, although he knows nothing about theory or even how to play any instrument.
Click to expand...

If you friend can harmonize well, then (s)he knows theory, intuitively. (S)he may not be aware of the terms of how harmonies work, but (s)he understands harmonization.

Many experienced or natively talented musicians intuitively understand harmonies. Theory is just a way to describe it to other musicians.
 
Todzilla said:
If you friend can harmonize well, then (s)he knows theory, intuitively. (S)he may not be aware of the terms of how harmonies work, but (s)he understands harmonization.

Many experienced or natively talented musicians intuitively understand harmonies. Theory is just a way to describe it to other musicians.
Click to expand...

+1 to this.

Most "traditional" harmony lines are a third above the original note in the key of the song.

Many 90's grunge bands like Alice in Chains used a 5th above and kept that constant. It gives a more creepy and dark tonality.

It seems that big radio tock bands today are doubling, octaving, thirding, and even sometimes fifthing their harmonies to get a huge wall of sound. It really depends on the song.

I apologize if this was a confusing post. However, if it was - you may want to dip your toes into theory. All you need is a bit and it will help you understand what we're all talking about.
 
Yo KoPDude :D

Some good thoughts and ideas in here. Good posts.

I don't know diddly about theory either but what got me dialin in better harmonies was layin down the main part with vocals on my old crappy cassette recorder :) , figurin that part on my guitar then movin up a third or a fifth so I could hear what it was supposed to sound like and sing that part.

Over time, it just got kinda natural. Haven't done that in years but it did help to train my ear.

Just some thoughts dude. :drunk:
 
You should work on developping your ear at least to the point where you can instantly tell if what you're hearing is unicent, harmony, or octaves. It's not that hard.

Also, just a small, VERY SIMPLIFIED trick on figuring out harmonies: Whatever chord is being played at the time of harmonies occuring, 99% of the time, the notes of that chord are the same notes that are being sung. So, if the chord is an Am, chances are that one of the harmonies is an A, one is a C, and one is an E.
 
RAMI said:
You should work on developping your ear at least to the point where you can instantly tell if what you're hearing is unicent, harmony, or octaves. It's not that hard.

Also, just a small, VERY SIMPLIFIED trick on figuring out harmonies: Whatever chord is being played at the time of harmonies occuring, 99% of the time, the notes of that chord are the same notes that are being sung. So, if the chord is an Am, chances are that one of the harmonies is an A, one is a C, and one is an E.
Click to expand...

Ok, I appreciate the tips and advice :D

And yeah, dogdude... I'm planning on making a simple MIDI track to sing along to and match the notes cause I'm sure that if I didn't have a guide my singing would be terrible, my singing might be terrible no matter what though :D I guess time will tell.

So I guess what I need to do is learn about 3rd's 5th's (harmony's), and unicent. :)

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction everyone :):D
 
Hey KoP.

Sorry if I missed it, but where does editing come into this?

The editing I'd be doing on my vocal tracks would be:

  • Comping
  • Stripping any "silence"
  • Gaining up/down certain parts for "manual compression" (so to speak)
  • Crossfades & tiny fades in/out (for the comping and stripping parts)
  • Tuning (Melodyne)
  • Nudging words/syllables into time
  • Using vocalign to get the double-tracked vocals to match up in time
 
Kingofpain678 said:
I was afraid of that... :(
I know I should learn theory... It just seems like a huge pain in the ass.
.
Click to expand...

You don't need theory for that. I sing harmonies all the time and I don't know jack shit about theory. Listen to the Beach Boys.
 
Greg_L said:
You don't need theory for that. I sing harmonies all the time and I don't know jack shit about theory. Listen to the Beach Boys.
Click to expand...

I don't agree with that 100%. I'm far from being a "theory snob", but it helps when you're writing. It might not be as crucial when learning a cover. One can dissect each harmony of a Beach Boys tune and figure out each part without knowing the chords or notes. But try writing one of those without knowing what chords you're playing, or not knowing whether one chord is a major or minor or 7th, and it might work by accident, but having that little bit of knowledge has got to help. The eaisest thing I've ever done is pick up all the instruments and vocals on the covers I've done.

For sure, I agree that most musicians with even just a pretty good ear can throw a harmony on top of something and know whether it fits or not. But, for more complex 3 or 4 part harmonies, it makes it way easier to do if you at least know the notes in the chord you're singing to.
 
I'm just sayin....there's only what, 12 notes to choose from? Just make noise until you find one that works. :D
 
Greg_L said:
I'm just sayin....there's only what, 12 notes to choose from? Just make noise until you find one that works. :D
Click to expand...

Hehe....that works too. :D

But, it's true. Your chances are 1 in 12 either way. Just frickin' sing!!!!:cool::D:D
 
RAMI said:
I don't agree with that 100%. I'm far from being a "theory snob", but it helps when you're writing. It might not be as crucial when learning a cover. One can dissect each harmony of a Beach Boys tune and figure out each part without knowing the chords or notes. But try writing one of those without knowing what chords you're playing, or not knowing whether one chord is a major or minor or 7th, and it might work by accident, but having that little bit of knowledge has got to help. The eaisest thing I've ever done is pick up all the instruments and vocals on the covers I've done.

For sure, I agree that most musicians with even just a pretty good ear can throw a harmony on top of something and know whether it fits or not. But, for more complex 3 or 4 part harmonies, it makes it way easier to do if you at least know the notes in the chord you're singing to.
Click to expand...

^^^^^this^^^^^
 
philbagg said:
Hey KoP.

Sorry if I missed it, but where does editing come into this?

The editing I'd be doing on my vocal tracks would be:

  • Comping
  • Stripping any "silence"
  • Gaining up/down certain parts for "manual compression" (so to speak)
  • Crossfades & tiny fades in/out (for the comping and stripping parts)
  • Tuning (Melodyne)
  • Nudging words/syllables into time
  • Using vocalign to get the double-tracked vocals to match up in time
Click to expand...

Well actually in this thread I was more aiming for vocal recording techniques such as harmonies and what not...

I did start a thread more on actual editing though (https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=305407)

I know how to do most of the things in your list but I'm definitely wanting to learn more to make sure I'm doing it right and if not then learn how to do it right.... And for more than just vocals too :D
 
Doubling and Octaves Vocals

This thread appears to have spun out of control. I have two things to add. First, check out this link for a good beginning primer on simple chord theory
Second, you have gotten some good answers about how to train yourself to learn and sing harmonies, but the answer to how a lot of vocals are produced nowadays is not just simple harmonies in thirds and fifths. A lot of times, doubling a vocal and putting it through different processors (like guitar amps, crazy EQ, or wild compression) can fatten it up and make it sound larger than life. Octaves are often used in metal to achieve that low wicked sounding vocal while still having the high and intense vocal. The doubled and octave vocals are usually mixed back and panned to the sides in order to keep the main vocal up front and center. Hope this helps in answering your original question.
 
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