Violin sound.

Hi,

I think I need to try a new approach Rob; I'm trying to run before I can walk. I'd very much appreciate your advice. Would it be advantageous for me to spend time learning how to read and play the following;

https://www.violinclass.co/episodes/scalesandarpeggios

This is possibly like learning the English Alphabet before I could read; I need to sight read because of my poor memory so if I can learn each position off by heart I could follow the music score more accurately. I don't care how long it takes me I'm not in a hurry. Because of my circumstances I need to make better use of my studio time rather than messing around the way I'm doing at the moment and not progressing; I don't understand lots of the basics but I need to start somewhere and build on it. I'm acutely aware of my short comings but now I know four ladies who have tried to play a violin and given up; at the barbers this afternoon the lady cutting my hair told me she'd tried playing a violin many years ago; I don't have a violin playing friend I can personally discuss this with and I wouldn't be comfortable spending time away from Bron paying for violin lessons; I've searched locally on the web trying to find a violin teacher who would visit our home for one on one lessons. I'm like a blind person in an unknown location. The luthier who sets up my violins appears to have disappeared I can no longer find his website unless he's taken it down whilst on holiday.

Violin playing is extremely difficult for me and I'm sorry to be such a pest. When Bron finally has her knee replacement allowing freedom of movement after recovery then I'm sure things will also improve for me; I've got the drive and enthusiasm to learn but not the time just yet. Another busy day has rapidly disappeared and I'm too tired to wander into the studio.

I want to dump the bad habits I've already fallen into; if I don't I'll never improve. Next month we will be plunged into another nine month black hole due to altering the clocks; it's already getting dark at 7:05pm. I've spent our usual joke of a summer doing all the heavy outside jobs so winter won't be bad in that it frees up a lot more spare time for me.

Kind regards, Colin.
 
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Well, you picked an instrument that needs more attention to detail. If you tune your new guitars, them accuracy of finger placement isn’t an issue. The snag with wanting to play an instrument is aural acuity. Can you hear when you are not quite in tune, and teach your fingers the correct place? If this is a bit random, then you need to perhaps consider building your listening skills so you can detect when pitches are not close enough. In the video, you didn’t notice the note that was a complete semi-tone wrong. This suggests that it will be quite tricky to progress unless you sort it. Traditional music lessons do indeed place emphasis on scales and arpeggios. If you cannot detect what are called intervals when they are wrong, how will you judge yourself when playing scales? You are using your background to see a note on the staff, recognise its name, direct fingers to the right place, move bow. A mechanical system but with no error checking. The other day you posted a recording of Lara’s theme. Unless you had told us it was Lara’s theme, we would not have known because so many intervals were incorrect. It wasn’t Lara’s Theme, but a collection of notes some of which were one note on the piano away from where they should have been. There are lots of scales but the link you posted shows the scales in lots of keys. The interval between each note in each version is the same, but that means lots of adjustments to your fingering, especially if you play the open strings. These will be wrong in many keys and some keys wont have any of the open string notes at all. This means an adventure out of the basic position using fingers on the strings for every note. I bet that at least one school in your area would give you the name of their violin peripatetic teacher. I think human intervention is vital, so they can teach you what the correct intervals sound like.

Have you tried stuff like this?

The c Major one has no sharps or flats, but then he moves onto G Major and you must remember every F is sharp. Try this and see if you can play along.
 
When I did my music O-Level, one thing the teacher (I was the only student) did was play two notes, and ask me what the interval was.
I was hopeless at it, so don't feel discouraged Colin.
The trick is that we all know popular tunes, which are embedded in our minds.
A good one is from Sound Of Music - Doe a deer....
If you can sing it out loud, or just in your mind, you actually do know the intervals.
 
Raymond is spot on. Very few people cannot learn it. It doesn't matter if you can sing nicely, but if you play a note on your violin, can you sing it? As in hear it, sing it? The snag of course is that to do this you need a third person, maybe your dear wife, if she likes music. If she is feeling ok enough to chat, ask her to ‘test’ you. This supposes she has a good ear too, or course, but might be fun? Violins are tuned in fifths, so if you bow two adjacent you should get a nice drone type effect. Do it on lower strings and see if you can finger the octave up on the next string so it enhances the drone. Get it wrong and it will sound horrible. That is good practice for exact fingering, but also for training your ear to hear mistuning.

I bet you have bought a tuner and use it very precisely. Tune the lowest string. Then detune the second, and put it back by ear till it sounds right to you. Then check with the tuner. My guess is you will find you were wrong. Repeat and repeat till your ear dials it in. Do NOT be disheartened if you discover you get it badly wrong at first.

After all this, if it does not get better, then you chose the wrong instrument for you.i cannot play the violin because the distance between notes is too small for my chunky fingers. I can play bass and cello fine. In your case, if tuning v ears is a real issue switch to a fretted instrument, as you have bought some! Guitar of course are tuned sort of in fourths, so very different to your violin, but it is a new adventure, and i have to say, easier.
 
Hi,

What a lot of information to take in; Thank you Rob; I've just watched The Major Scales video finding it very interesting. As I got more into the video I noticed E Flat Major started playing on the D string (D sharp/E flat) which puzzles me; I thought E notes would be played on the E string but it's just an observation from a novice; I've so much to learn. No I'm unable to hear when I'm out of tune so need to work on this as discussed by both you and Raymond. Yes I have electronic tuners and use one of these to tune the violin also in the past I've used the tuner for finger placement trying to remember positions but I'm starting to understand a bit more; it's listening to what is being played rather than where my fingers are; both important but listening is the more important.

I fully agree Rob I'm playing more like a robot and the outcome is harsh without flow and intervals are all over the place; with yours and Raymond's generous help I'm being guided in the right direction. I have a laptop in the studio so I now need to include this but it's sound output is very low; I might be able to boost this with one of the amps.

Yes Raymond I can sing the Sound Of Music song so I'm in with a chance; I've got Lara's Theme and others on memory stick I can play through the studio radio.

Is there any way I can play against my laptop showing what notes I'm playing; I can do this with the tuner showing both flats and sharps but often my fingers get in the way of the tuner; you mention stubby fingers Rob; I'm built like a stick insect but when I first played against the tuner I think on the A string I had difficulty with just two notes. It's a long while ago Rob you brought my attention to fifths. I don't understand the drone effect but I'm sure as I practice more I'll catch on.

I've got four lady friends who tried and gave up trying to play violins; I'm a long way from giving up; I've wanted to play a violin for the best part of 50 years and it's violin playing I'm interested in. If I end up just playing to please myself I intend to keep my violins; I don't have the same enthusiasm for playing a guitar of other instrument.

Bron is much too ill to help me in any way; she is in so much constant pain it distresses me watching her struggle to visit the bathroom; hopefully this will improve once Bron has her knee replaced but she also has other health issues like Parkinson's.

Whilst typing this I've just broken off for ten minutes to get Bron comfortable with a mug of tea and fruit scone; I even baked the scones a couple of days ago. Today I've got some spare time and feel more relaxed; I've printed the scales off on A4 paper but will have this enlarged making it easier for me to read; a company in nearby Ossett enlarges files for me at only 50p per page.

I've hit a rare lull in daily demands on my time possibly until next Monday when we start the hospital visits again. I do get rather disheartened Raymond but I always think however down I get; Bron is so much worse off than I am. Both you and Rob have reignited my deep enthusiasm to carry on learning to play a violin; thank you both so much it means a lot to me having people like you to discuss violins with. With Bron being housebound I too am virtually housebound afraid to leave Bron home alone; the longest journey we've done is to Leeds for an hospital appointment; I worry about Bron whilst I'm out shopping and visiting local stores. Violin playing is at the moment well down on my list of priorities.

I'll get the scales enlarged and play around with the studio laptop which could prove useful. I've removed the two videos from YouTube; I did achieve what I set out to do getting music from my studio onto YouTube; I can record any progress I make to memory stick and assuming I learn to play better then I know how to proceed with YouTube.

Dinnertime approaching so got to go; everything takes so much time to accomplish.

Kind regards, Col.
 
Hi,

Yesterday afternoon I drove over to Ossett and had the violin scales enlarged to A3 together with the "Fools Rush In" score so I've got something to work with. Today has been busy as usual but this evening at 6:30 I got into the studio for half an hour and I think two things clicked. I didn't understand the major scales; I thought all the scales were played on the four strings with only four fingers or three fingers before moving to the next string.

Now for the first time I looked very closely at the scales and at last I think I understand them; these scales are played on just one string such as "A" (A Major) but without leaving the string all the notes can be played if this makes sense. I was fascinated and was playing adjusting fingering against the electronic tuner noting even the smallest movement made a lot of difference but also what I thought was previously wrong I can now hear the ringing; I thought when I heard this it was wrong but is this ringing the "Sharps" if I've got it right? Some notes like A string E&F really did ring out as did others; on the G string they were rather more subdued but I'll get used to hearing the ringing; open strings are easy enough and if I can now hear the sharps then I'm on my way.

I just feel like the fog is clearing; I had to pack in because my left hand was hurting so much; I've been rotavating in the garden today and because I've not yet mastered using a shoulder rest holding up the violin with my left hand shifting was proving painful; I've only ever played where I could reach without shifting so there are a few things I now need to sort out; I need to free up my left hand then I can play strings full length.

This is because I took to heart the information you Rob & Raymond have been telling me; I hope I'm on track; I can tell the slight differences in tune now but I've a long way to go in memorizing them; I'm as keen as ever to play more with time permitting; I feel really cheered up. Without the tuner I can find the ringing.

I'm tired and worn out but wanted to add this before bedtime because it's important to me.

Kind regards, Col.
 
The ‘ringing’ is called beating. Its actually maths based and is what piano tuners do all the time. If you want to Google for the background, its essentially the musical version of the harmonic series, where the relationships between frequencies make interesting things happen. Back in Beethoven’s days, strings were tuned in a way that meant the early pianos could not play music in every key (as we do now). One key would sound slightly out of tune, while another would sound more melodic. Since those days, we sort of use a compromise tuning that allows keys to be changed.

The drone sound i mentioned is that sound you get when you play two string together, tuned to what is called a perfect fifth. So C and G or E and B etc. The peaks and troughs of the two waveforms align in a particular way that is pleasing. It also works on things like guitars that are a 4th apart, because a 4th up is also a 5th down! This is how we tune instruments by ear, when we did not have tuners - listening for that beat sound.

Its also tricky when instruments have sort of rogue notes. These seem to sing out, as louder and a different tone. These though are unwanted, and are resonance based. The difference between beginners and established unfretted instrument players is accuracy of tuning. With a teacher, your first steps are a two stage process. Correct finger on the correct place, but also then micro-tuning. This develops muscle memory. In ensemble playing, strings constantly micro-tune. You play a B, your neighbour plays a B, and neither of you is bang on. You hear this and shift slightly up, but they hear you and shift slightly down. What happens is the real version of the electronic chorus effect. THEN, they add vibrato. Watch any violin player and you see their finger tips wobble. A little or a lot, but very rarely not at all. This disguises errors in pitch a little, but further enhances the sound. Beginners play a B, miss it by a few mm, but do not correct. The only pitches that are in tune are the open strings. Open strings sound different to fingered notes. Composers use this for effect. This is why guitarists play chords all over the place. They sound different. The open strings change the feel.

If your intention is to fill a few hours and progress is not important, then what you are doing is fine. What i have noticed is this lack of progression. You probably play more than many kids having lessons, where they always say they have practiced when they haven’t. Their teachers always know. You are at one of the barriers. Decision time. Move forward, or not? You’ve just found out about scales, and what are called accidentals, the sharps and flats, but have not really put them into a musical perspective.

Try to think about scales having 12 notes, not 8. Draw yourself a piano keyboard with about 20 notes, with the black and white note labelled with letter names. Remember that some of them will have two names. F sharp is also G flat! Then start on C and go up the Major scale of C. Its the white notes of course. Then start on D and repeat. To maintain the same note spacing it goes D, E, but then the next note has to be F sharp, not F. When you did the C scale, you ignored C sharp and D sharp, but the E was followed by F, both white notes. Starting on D, you must maintain the same not skipping/not skipping spacing.

This will keep you busy for hours. Very important stuff to get into your head as you need to learn scales. Its not about just playing them, but understanding them.
 
Hi,

This is so interesting Rob; thank you; it's a great deal to take in all at once and I need to stop gathering more information at the moment in order to allow me to study your instructions. I'm very aware of my lack of positive progress and as I've explained many times I've often been under a lot of pressure whilst in the studio when I should be elsewhere; I think over the last year I've gone backwards and now want to correct this; I've been playing the same tunes the same way for a long time just to pick up the violin unable to concentrate on doing anything differently; by doing this I've tried to keep my interest in violins alive rather than simply give up in failure.

I'm still under considerable pressure and stress but with luck things should improve over the next few months; Bron will always come first.

Progress will be very slow but I'll make a determined effort with learning the scales and finger placement; I've now got something positive to aim for rather than dashing in and out of the studio doing the same thing over and over again. I've now got the video camera which is very easy to record on and play back through my PC so I'm interested to play correct notes then listen to them; the notes sound different whilst playing to what I hear as a recording; it's all down to learning and lots of practice.

9:45 this morning as I headed into the studio Bron mentioned I'd forgotten something; later today a guy is collecting a machine from me; at 77 I feel I need to look at my life in general; I'm forever bogged down with work so I'm clearing out some of my heavy machines and lots of other items I've been busy using over the years; if anything untoward happens to me all my heavy machines and tooling etc will be a big liability to Bron who wouldn't have a clue what to do with them.

I did try many months ago browsing the web looking for local violin tutors and even emailed one asking if he could visit my home for one on one violin lessons but he didn't even reply; I think the luthier who sorted out a violin for me and sold me a violin seems to have disappeared. If I do find a violin tutor it will be a male tutor; my studio is small so I'd feel uncomfortable with a female tutor; it's possible when Bron is more mobile then I can travel locally but I know I'd worry about Bron falling due to her suffering Parkinson's; life isn't at all easy. Next Monday & Tuesday are hospital days at different hospitals with yet another hospital visit later in the month.

With all the information you've kindly given to me Rob taking your precious time I need to absorb it and stop messing around; I'm sure this information will also be of use to other violin novices if they follow this thread. I can help myself by watching YouTube videos searching for things like Fifths; violin drone sounds and learning to use vibrato; I'm pointed in the right direction so know what to search for.

Emails now to catch up on; I'll get into the studio this evening.

Over to me now and once again thanks so much Rob.

Kind regards, Colin.
 
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