Violin Mic question

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tromostheory

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I'm a composer and violinist, so I tend to record a lot of violin. I was given two AKG C1000s that do the job, but I'm not thrilled with them. Are there any mics under $500 that would sound much better for violin? Is there anything slightly more expensive that's worth saving up for? I've had the best luck with small diaphragm condensors (schoeps are my favorite but unaffordable). Is there another type of mic worth considering? I use a DMP3 preamp into a Digi001. Thanks a lot.
 
tromostheory said:
I'm a composer and violinist, so I tend to record a lot of violin. I was given two AKG C1000s that do the job, but I'm not thrilled with them. Are there any mics under $500 that would sound much better for violin? Is there anything slightly more expensive that's worth saving up for? I've had the best luck with small diaphragm condensors (schoeps are my favorite but unaffordable). Is there another type of mic worth considering? I use a DMP3 preamp into a Digi001. Thanks a lot.
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perhaps ribbon mics?
i got a lot of good tips on how/where to use them based on this article:
http://emusician.com/tutorials/emusic_ribbon_mic_summit/index7.html
I have a couple of Karma K-6's that I love. I'm heading down to Indiana with my girlfriend this weekend for a couple of weeks for the holidays and hope to record her father-- an accomplished musician and music professor at Indiana University playing his Stradivarius. I can post some impressions and maybe some clips if they come out well.
Also will probably try out my Oktava modded MK-219, my Karma K-58, maybe a BLUE Blueberry for the hell of it, and some MSH mics if they arrive in time through a variety of preamps-- UA m610, Chameleon Labs 7602, Safe Sound P1 and Mackie Onyx pres.
 
I'd lean toward a ribbon microphone. I've not used any of the cheapies. I personally like the AEA R92 and R84. I am a huge fan of the sE R1 Ribbon.

The thing about ribbons is that these particular models give you a Figure of 8 pattern. So, you get more of the violin within the space versus getting it in isolation which to me is not the way to capture the sound of a violin. I'd position the ribbon mic about two to four feet over the violin. I think a lot of what should detrmine the number of mics and whether you use a stereo mic'ing technique should be partly determined by what you're trying to achieve. I've generally found that in multitracking that less is more but with capturing solo performances that I'm more likely to use multi mic techniques.
 
tromostheory said:
I'm a composer and violinist, so I tend to record a lot of violin. I was given two AKG C1000s that do the job, but I'm not thrilled with them. Are there any mics under $500 that would sound much better for violin?
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Really, anything. My God, I can't think of anything worse for a violin than a hyped, edgy condenser like the C1000. That's why you see people recommending smoother-sounding, generally somewhat darker mics like ribbons.

A mic that I really like for that kind of thing is the Groove Tubes GT44 small diaphragm condenser. It's a darker mic that has a way of smoothing out sound sources that might need some taming. I've even seen some people use an Electrovoice RE-20, although that one might get used a little more on brass.
'
 
Ribbon mics would be a good suggestion, but I am not sure I would venture down that path wiithout either a Royer R122 or a really nice quiet high gain preamp. With the typical low output of a ribbon mic combined with the often quiet dynamic of a violin combined with backing the mic out a few feet I would imagine you would really have to add a lot of gain and in return the preamp noise could become very apparent.

In general, like Chessrock mentioned, I would lean towards a darker sounding mic with a very smooth but extended top end. If I were you, I would look into one of the Peluso SD mics, or even look for a used Neumann KM84, but not one of the newer KM184's.

Kojdogg mentioned tryiong a Blueberry on Violin. Personally I have not had much luck with this. The Blueberry has a bit too much top and bottome for my taste on violin (or maybe a scooped out mid, however you choose to look at it). The Blueberry has however done really well in orchestral situations as a "sectional" mic for me though. In the past For some reason I have had good luck with my older AKG 451's. They sound very similar (often almost undistinguishable to me) to my newer opnes, but the older ones tend to handle strings better for me than the newer ones. Almost like strings tend to either reveal, or just accentuate the differences between the originals and the reissues. I have also had good luck with AKG 414 B/ULS's, but typically only in the omni pattern. Good ol shure sm81's and KSM32's have always given me good results with smaller stringed instruments like the violin as well.
 
I really, really like my AEA R92 on violin. It was just a touch dark for the last song I recorded, but the R92 takes so well to EQ, I just brightened it up a touch and it was absolutely perfect.
 
The RE20 might not be a bad mic to try.

You might try an omni small diaphragm condenser such as a pair of Avenson STO-2.

I'd prefer a ribbon, though, as I posted earlier.
 
I find that ribbons tend to instantly turn violin into fiddle. Non-classically oriented recordists tend to prefer that sound, but a 'composer and violinist' might not mind the instrument with all its glorious overtones.
 
mshilarious said:
I find that ribbons tend to instantly turn violin into fiddle. Non-classically oriented recordists tend to prefer that sound, but a 'composer and violinist' might not mind the instrument with all its glorious overtones.
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Good tip-- I'll try x/y'ing a couple of ribbons with a condenser in the middle to give some tonal options.
 
Cad M179 and an SM7 set up ms stereo can capture a violin very well. You could substitute just about any non-hyped mic for the sm7 and a higher quality fig 8 mic would be fine but these mics sound great to me. For a Cheaper fix, a 4040 two feet out and one foot up sounds good too.
 
the gt44 is a fantastic mic for violin. +1 on that recommendation. i usually use mkh40's (close) or bk4011's distant...until i got the 44 which seems to fit like a glove on acoustic instruments of all species.

i've never had luck on ribbons on violin. i don't know why! i've used the coles and my 77...they always sound too boxy...rarely am i in a good room though...so this is probably key. the mkh 40 is forgiving in that regard and the 4011's are for classical recitals.

Later

Mike
 
On the condensor side, I would try an AKG 414. You should be able to get a used EB/P48 or ULS in your price range. They are very flat. Don't get the TLII, which has a presence hump.
For dynamic, I'd suggest a Shure SM7 or a Sennheiser 441, both in your price range.
I don't know if the ribbon mics in your price range would work, but the Royer 121 definitely would but is twice what your willing to pay.
 
Thanks a lot guys. I'm actually getting an RE20 as a bass drum/multipurpose mic soon, but I didn't imagine it would work well on violin. I'll give the $20 MSH mics a try soon for the hell of it. I might wait to hear how the RE20 sounds. I've heard these tube mics are amazing for the price (around $300), and they have a figure 8 option on them. http://pacificproaudio.com/ld2_specs.asp
What do you guys think? Thanks a lot for all your input.
 
I recently had my first shot at it.. just went into CYA mode.. :) This was 'country w/ acoustic and electrics. QTC-1, R-121 and an ADK ST covered three flavors. The ST was sort of doing the invert of the 121 ('smiley curve). Both the 121 and QTC are very fine. My pref is the QTC. Plenty of body, lots of presence is spite of there being nothing edgy on top.
Wayne
 
I have always had good luck with the sm-81 on violin (and fiddle :p )
 
The room is everything when it comes to violin, and any attempt to remove the room from the violin sound and adding it via reverb will almost certainly leave you dissapointed. Not that you can't add reverb, but there just has to be some space around the violin to start with, and close micing will rarely yield a decent sound. The violin, and the bow and rosin can make quite a difference also, of course, so how these elements combine will make quite a difference to what mic(s) and technique to use to arrive at the last variable, what kind of violin sound you're after for what track. If you have a good room to work with, do consider trying M/S, which can really let you dial in the sound during the mix as you very the mid and side ratio. I've also had good results with spaced pairs of SDCs, which I find works better for violin than X/Y. One thing's for sure....... the C1000 is the WRONG mic for the job, as is anything with hyped upper mids.
 
In a good room I have had wonderful results with the KEL HM-1s.
They are a darker mid sized diaphram mic. not very expensive for a matched pair. I think I paid less than $200 for a matched pair.

Tom
 
I've used an MSH on cello & it's really quite good. I'm hoping to buy one of the micro tube/valve versions for that little something extra in the new year as they're OOS at present. Also, (yeah I know but anyway), an old sony 19B electret condenser gave a very nice colouration to the cello.
 
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