Victim of the loudness war?

  • Thread starter Thread starter killthepixelnow
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killthepixelnow

killthepixelnow

Do it right or dont do it
Hey guys, a friend of mine offer me to master the songs for my band's first album. I know this have to be done in a proper facilit with a golden-ears guy but c'mon, my budget is really really low at this time so... I gave him the final tracks.

So, I'm posting these two samples for critiques, the final mix and the "mastered" song ("Fecal burrito")

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=896591

Just in case if you want to download 1min 320kbps samples here's the addres where you can do it:
Mix
Master

Thanks in advance!
 
I did a quick comparison of the two samples. The 'mix' avergaes out at about -17, with the master at -13, so there is a 4db increase. While it is pretty loud, it is not as loud as some I've seen, and I notice that it is not just a rectangular slab.
 
(...)and I notice that it is not just a rectangular slab.

:confused: Er... so, what does it means? BTW, should I tell my friend to push the limit a little further? I don't want to lose the dynamics.
 
:confused: Er... so, what does it means? BTW, should I tell my friend to push the limit a little further? I don't want to lose the dynamics.

It means that if you push the limit any further you run a real risk of losing the dynamics. I'd say your friend has done a reasonable job of increasing the energy without breaking the song.

However, I'd suggest you get some other views on this rather than just my opinion.
 
:confused: Er... so, what does it means? BTW, should I tell my friend to push the limit a little further? I don't want to lose the dynamics.
Every tiny bit of limiting or compression added, you are by definition and by design, losing the dynamics.
 
Well yes, that's teh reason I'm worried beacuse I'm in a quite situation: Try to have a brickwall sound like the industry standard or just sound good with "less" volume.
 
There is NO industry standard.

I suggest you follow you own advice as you have stated it under your user name. You just gotta decide whether you believe "right" is to sound good or to sound loud. That is an individual decision only you can make for yourself.

I would only offer this viewpoint: If the listener likes the music well enough, they won't care if it's a couple of dB quieter, they'll like it anyway. If they decide they don't like it so much, they'll think that no matter how loud you make it.

G.
 
I did a quick comparison of the two samples. The 'mix' avergaes out at about -17, with the master at -13, so there is a 4db increase. While it is pretty loud, it is not as loud as some I've seen, and I notice that it is not just a rectangular slab.

if its -13 average RMS, thats not too loud at all. thats right about right for todays 90s and 2000 rock music. Ive heard louder.......

I took a song of Linkin Parks new album, and it averaged about -10 to -9 RMS. And ive heard even louder than that (shall i mention the infamous Metallicas "Death Magnetic" album?).

with the right tools, they should be able to get it to -10 without making it seem lifeless and losing the snare drum....
 
-13 is NOT average. Maybe for the late 90s. But now you're looking at in the -5 range. You're lucky to get a new release that's more than -9.
 
I hate this "loudness" thing. I usually do contemporary/popular music since my clients are those kind of artist, so when I do a mix and they want it "finalized" as a reference, they always want it to be "louder in comparison to [their] mp3 of their favorite artists' songs."

So when I slightly compress and limit the song, I get the "rectangular slab" that Gecko Zzed mentioned, and I know the kick is going to (almost literally) be gone... at first they're like "yes!", then they come back like "the thump is gone." UGH! So I just hide it up now by boosting the low end frequencies that compliment the kick before I give them their big ol' hunk of block.

This is as annoying as having a beautiful mix and then their "overseer" saying he wants auto tune on the chorus.

However, when I send it to mastering is the only time I smile. :-)
 
-13 is NOT average. Maybe for the late 90s. But now you're looking at in the -5 range. You're lucky to get a new release that's more than -9.
I'd pay if -13 (actually closer to -15dBRMS) was the average today... That's when stuff actually sounds good.
Why God created talk radio.

G.
Word to the talk. I hardly ever listen to FM radio anymore. Can't stand the damage. I listen to enough music to keep up on trends (I still "study" audio), but I won't subject myself to the irritation and damage in the long term.
 
Word to the talk. I hardly ever listen to FM radio anymore. Can't stand the damage. I listen to enough music to keep up on trends (I still "study" audio), but I won't subject myself to the irritation and damage in the long term.
And I thought I was the only "old man" around here ;).

Yeah, I still "study", or keep up with what's up, but it just isn't the pleasure it used to be. And no, it's not a generational music thing (though sure, there's always a little bit of that), it's the crunched productions that just make you want to turn the radio off.

There are still a couple of specialty music-based shows that I listen to when I can, but those are mostly on NPR and small independent stations, and have a format that goes well beyond the Clear Channel/Jack Radio/etc. pablum formats that are Xeroxed out by 99% of the radio stations out there now.

The real dying shame IMHO is not that crunching dynamic rage is SOP these days; it's really not so much, once you get past the commercial playlists. There is a LOT of great music out there being produced even as we speak that does not follow that trend. The problem is that very few listeners ever get to hear them because they never do get past the computerized Big Boy commercial station format restrictions.

What we really need is a return to the (at least semi-) autonomous program director and the role of DJ as musicologist and not just manual laborer. The early days of FM radio were just wonderful, with formats like Triad Radio (and the oft-associated Zodiac News Service) which had formats where the DJ was actually a *talent* and not a robot; somebody with a real ear for and knowledge of music, who put together their own playlists that had real emotion, intelligence, and a sense of humor to them, and which on a regular basis actually turned the listener on to something very good which no one has really heard before or hadn't thought of putting on the playlist before, regardless of genre. When 5 seconds of dead air here or there was not crime, and pacing in the program was an art form and not a formula.

Then to get the news with a real treatment and touch a couple of times a day in 20-minute or 30-minute segments from someone like Zodiac or a funky in-house news *editor*, instead of just some chimp reading warmed-over headlines off the AP newswire for 4 minutes every hour. Man, those were the days.

It's starting to happen on the Internet, but finding these net stations is just too much work for the average passive listener, and - under today's technology - is not an option for the car. You can't just spin the simple radio dial and find what you're looking for. Also, the streaming bandwidth and technology is not quite there yet (or at lest not fully implemented yet) to let the real fidelity of the non-crushed songs to shine.

G.
 
Growing up in this generation it's hard for me to see through the trends, I am all for breaking out of the norm and I've never been one to do something because everyone else is doing it. But just being in this generation, being surrounded by this crap, I hear something that is crushed, lifeless, and smashed and as sad as it is, it just sounds normal to me. The loudness war is an up hill battle to me, but none the less one I see worth fighting. Can anyone offer any tips or advice or references even that would help me in "fighting the good fight"? ;)

Also how do you calculate the RMS, In my version of Cubase I can only get the Peaks. Would I just have to find the quietest part in my song and estimate the average?

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks,
-Barrett
 
there were a few radio station in the LA area on radio that had dj's that played whatever they wanted. whatever they were in the mood for, but they don't last long because the span of the signal from the radio station isn't strong enough to span over a large enough population of people and marketers don't spend their advertising dollars on anything that doesn't already have a base of listeners. satellite radio will probably be the only place where you'll find dj's playing what they want, but obviously you have to pay.
 
Growing up in this generation it's hard for me to see through the trends, I am all for breaking out of the norm and I've never been one to do something because everyone else is doing it. But just being in this generation, being surrounded by this crap, I hear something that is crushed, lifeless, and smashed and as sad as it is, it just sounds normal to me. The loudness war is an up hill battle to me, but none the less one I see worth fighting. Can anyone offer any tips or advice or references even that would help me in "fighting the good fight"? ;)
While the production styles may have changed, for the most part the real instruments and the music haven't (at least not in a way directly important to this topic.) I'd start by getting away from recordings and listening to how stuff sounds in real life - and not from the stage, but from the audience. I'm not talking about checking out U2 in a big sports stadium or some local band at an outdoor music festival, but rather more organic and (in some cases) more intimate settings.

Hit some small intimate lounges known for attracting some of the better local acts (good musicians and singes, and not just open mikes), playing anything from folk to Latin to jazz to rock to metal (the more you mix it up, the more educated and trained your ears will become, even if you do only work within one genre back at the studio) and listen to how real dynamics sounds before and without heavy compression and limiting. If you have access to a local town or college symphony orchestra, buy a couple of tickets to one of their shows and listen to what an important part dynamics play in the actual arrangements of the music. (Added bonus: Add a nice dinner before or after the concert and your girlfriend/wife will be putty in your hands :D)

Again, even if you play or record only headbanging or only reggae or whatever back at the studio, it doesn't matter. You'll never educate your ears listening to only one kind of music, any more than you'll become an excellent chef by eating at only one restaruant.
Also how do you calculate the RMS, In my version of Cubase I can only get the Peaks. Would I just have to find the quietest part in my song and estimate the average?
There are plenty of utilities and plugs that calculate RMS values automatically for you. I'm not intimately familiar with Cubase, but I'd bet that they already have an RMS calculator available from a menu selection or native plug somewhere. Go into the online help file with Cubase and do a search on "RMS" and see what pops up.

Otherwise, you can try the "Inspector" plug from Roger Nichols Digital, which includes RMS meters next to their standard peak meters. It does not give you a numerical readout for the RMS average for the whole song, though. Then there's the "Span" plug from Voxengo which gives numerical RMS measurements. There are many others as well.

One thing to be aware of that confuses this topic even more is that there are a couple of different ways out there in which various manufacturers measure RMS. Without getting technical, suffice it to say that the two methods result in a 3dB difference in RMS readings. What reads as -17dBRMS in one can read as -14dBRMS in another.

G.
 
Yeah, this whole war is really pissing me off. Just got some new CDs that I'm really into as of late, and tried listening to them through headphones the other night. I didn't make it through half of one of them. Back when I was a pink floyd nut, I'd spend night after night 'exploring' dark side of the moon thru the cans, which is probably what hooked me on recording to begin with, but these new releases are killing me! It sounded like I was listening to AM radio via internet streaming through ipod buds... total vibe kill.
Glen, I hear you on the 'studying' vs. 'pleasure' with new stuff. 'cept I'm only 20 :eek:
 
Glen, I hear you on the 'studying' vs. 'pleasure' with new stuff. 'cept I'm only 20 :eek:
Old bast*ards like me are counting on young'uns like you to re-vitalize the idea of dynamics in recording. :)

G.
 
Don't worry Glen, I'm helping you out there. I'm looking at my mixes and I really don't feel like doing bus compression. Maybe do some notching of those random loud peaks.
 
Old bast*ards like me are counting on young'uns like you to re-vitalize the idea of dynamics in recording. :)

G.

With your advice I hope to have a hand in that movement :D

I really appreciate the response,
-Barrett
 
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