VF-16: SCSI out to Computer, Yes or No?

mic98

New member
This question was posed several times throughout the other thread and keeps getting lost in the shuffle. I own a VF-16.
The manual might as well be in the original Japanese it was "translated" from and their
techs on the phone, for some reason, state that you have to use an intermediary device like a Zip Drive between the VF-16 & the computer.
Has anyone, in actual practice,hooked up the unit from SCSI out port to SCSI card on their PC and burned a CD? I feel like I invested in this and I can't go ahead & get
a mastering device & start recording.
 
I don't think that you are supposed to connect the SCSI port from the VF-16 directly to a computer. The SCSI protocol is a master-slave protocol, and both the VF-16 and the computer are typically masters. In SCSI, masters can't talk to masters.

However, both a SCSI ZIP drive and a SCSI DC-R burner are slave devices. I believe that Fostex intends that you connect a SCSI CD-R burner to the VF-16 SCSI port. You can then burn the mixed-down-to stereo recording to a Redbook audio format on a writeable CD, and then play the song in any CD player. Of course, you can put the CD in your computer and Rip the stereo audio tracks to the hard drive, to do more editing. This is probably what the Japanese techs meant by saying that you must pass the data through the 'intermediary' device.

Perhaps even more useful is the capability to write each individual recorded track as a wave file to a data CD-R (NOT Redbook audio!) or a ZIP disk. You won't be able to play this CD on your CD Walkman, but you WILL be able to put the CD or Zip disk into your PC and read off all of the un-mixed tracks as wave files into your PC. You can then do complex mixes with EQ, effects and pan all on your PC, where you have a big screen and a mouse to help with the editing. I believe that this is what Fostex intended when they put the SCSI port on the VF-16.

With digital recording, multiple copies and mixdowns do not affect the final quality of the audio. This fact changes how you can go about making recordings. I record lots of live stuff, and 8-16 track digital recording allows me to get by with a much simpler setup, compaired to the old analog days. These days, I just set up enough mikes or direct boxes to get all the action, give each mike or box a separate record channel (no mixing) with flat EQ, set each mike level so it does't clip, and let 'er rip.

Don't worry about effects, mixes EQ, pan, etc. All that can come later. After all, anything you put on a track while recording (EQ, effects, compression, pan, etc.) can be done later in the mixdown (and usually better!). More importantly, at record time you can concentrate on the mike placement, room effects, and optimum levels (loud as you can without clipping). These are the things that you won't be able to fix later. Trying to set a mix in a live setting can be tough, particularly if the performers aren't cooperating with mike checks. It's much easier (and better) to just make sure you have clean audio from every instrument. The instruments can be 'enhanced' later.

After the recording is completed, you burn all of the tracks from the VF-16 into a CD or ZIP disc, and put the disc into your editing computer. Most of the PC audio-editing software has extensive effects and EQ capabilities, so you can tweak till your ears cross, and still be able to multiple-undo any edits to get back to the original set of tracks. When you have the final stereo mixdown, you burn to CD redbook audio, and you have your duplication master.

Personally, I find that all of the stand-alone disc recorders are limited in their editing capabilities by the small screens and lack of a mouse. For me, it would be better if Fostex made a 'pure' recording device that only had volume controls on each channel and minimal editing capabilities, but with a built-in CD-R burner. I could then record to the hard disk, burn all the tracks to the CD, put the CD into my PC, and do the final edit/mixdown there.

Skip


[This message has been edited by skip (edited 07-20-2000).]
 
Disclaimer: This is all theory!

You can connect several devices onto a SCSI chain. And you probably can connect the PC and the VF to the same SCSI bus without anything breaking. But to use them together, one of the devices has to understand the other device. Also, you can not from the SCSI drive use the PC to store info. Its the other way around, the PC is using the SCSI drive to store stuff.

This is why you need the Zip-drive in between. Both your PC, and the VF-16 knows what a Zip-drive is, and can read and write too it. That way you can copy a wav-file to the Zip drive from the PC and import it into the VF-16, or the other way around. That way you can get the mix over to the zip drive, then copy the wav-files to the PC and burn the CD. Tada!

So the answer is: No.
 
Originally posted by regebro:
Disclaimer: This is all theory!

You can connect several devices onto a SCSI chain. And you probably can connect the PC and the VF to the same SCSI bus without anything breaking.

You _really_ dont want to do that. Connecting two scsi hosts together == two dead scsi hosts. (thats worst case) best case is things just dont work.

The VF and your PC are a SCSI host, connecting them together would be bad.

Im pretty sure on this, but if you are gonna do it...i mean, its your gear. :)
 
Thanks very much for the replies and a special thanks to Skip for the great info on
SCSI master/slave stuff. I'm now looking into the Castlewood ORB. It uses 2.2GB disks
and has a 50-pin SCSI in port & separate out.
I want to be 100% positive whatever I get will work.
 
To reply to my own post, I just found out that you can't use the aforementioned Castlewood ORB because you cannot backup to
any disk larger than 2GB per the VF-16 manual.
Also, I am beginning to understand that you save a recording from the VF-16 out thru the
SCSI port as a Wav. file to a ZIP disk(even though 250MB may not be enough for a single track. I wish Fostex would list compatible
drives.
 
Forgive another consecutive posting, but I just spoke with my new friend Bob (I think) at Fostex in California. He tells me there are only three compatible devices to connect to the SCSI port of the VF-16: The Iomega Zip Drive, the Iomega Jaz drive, or something
called a Panasonic DVD-RAM. I have heard bad things about the Jaz drive, the Zip disk
doesn't hold enough data, and I'm not getting into DVD format for audio.
This leaves the Jaz drive as the only option. If Iomega ever goes out of business,
we're all in trouble.
 
I've been watching this post intently hoping that some good news would come of it. I was ready to overlook the noisey(very noisey) hard drive and owners manual from hell thinking I would be able to use a CD burner to store song data and to master to if I bought it. I don't think a 250meg Zip will even be big enough to store data for a 5 minute/16 track song. And at $20/disc, it'll get a little expensive. I hope I'm overlooking something. I liked this thing...and I can afford it!
 
I went yesterday to Mars Music in Plano, Texas. They have the VF-16s in stock (they're asking $1199 for them). I had the saleman open the VF-16 box, and I looked through the manual.
I seem to remember the manual saying that you could hook a SCSI CD-R or CD-RW drive to the VF-16 port. A SCSI CD-R drive sells for $200-300, and a regular CD holds between 650 and 720 Megabytes of data.

I figure that this allows you to put about 15 minutes of 8-track recording on one CD. If you record 8 tracks for for 30 minutes, you can put 4 of the 30-minute tracks on one CD, and 4 on another, and so forth. CDs cost around 60 cents each, so this seems to be a reasonable solution. At least this is better than a 100meg or 250 meg Zip drive.

I will go back in to Mars tomorrow and double-check the CD-R thing. On the other hand, if mic98's friend Bob at Fostex is right, and the VF-16 can use a DVD-RAM, that's even better. DVD RAMs are typically more expensive than CD-Rs ($500-$700), but they hold up to 5.2 Gigabytes! of data. I think this figures out to over two hours of 44KHz, 8-track recording on a removeable CD-size disk! Checking the web, I see Creative is now advertising a DVD RAM for $299!
http://www.americas.creative.com/pc-dvd/pc-dvdram-5.2gb/

This is looking better all the time...

Skip

[This message has been edited by skip (edited 07-19-2000).]
 
Skip (and mic98), your investigative work is most appreciated. I dont think you can use a DVD RAM to record an audio CD though. And that's my ultimate goal- having a CD of my music.
 
All this talk is making me think I shoud just get a Roland VS 890 or 1880 and Master and burn the CDs from the burner. IT may be more expensive but at least I won't have to worry so much about Zips and Jazs and compatability etc etc etc.
 
twelvdrmz: Making our own CD's with the VF-16
is what it's all about. I know it CAN be done, but right now we're all trying to figure out the best way to get song data from the unit to our PC's then burn a CD.
New Fool: Hello from the U.S.! Personally, I
had been looking at the Rolands for years and HATED the fact that they always had less
faders than tracks, even with the 1880! I need complete creative control at mixdown! As
for the confusion at present about compatible media drive devices for the VF-16,
we are the Pioneers of this thing; Fostex states unequivocally that the Iomega drives (jaz or zip) will work; we're all just exploring all the possibilities in order to make the best choice.
 
Again, it seems we have waded into uncertainties about how to back up data and how to move data to a PC for burning a CD. Maybe it's time that we list what we know to be true and what we still need to know:

We know that:
1.You can use a ZIP or JAZ drive to back up "programs"songsdata.
2.You can then hook up this same device to a SCSI port on our PC and move the data to a PC.
3. The ability to back up to a CDRW is uncertain. Some people believe that you can back up data to a CDRW, while others believe that Fostex has made the VF-16 imcompatable with this standard device.

What we (I?) need to know:

1. Can one, without question, backup "programs"/songs/data to CDRW just as you would a ZIP drive, and then transfer them from there to a PC with a SCSI port?

2. To what medium does one export the Wave file? Directly to a PC through a SCSI port? Or will we have to use the intermediary ZIP drive again?

3. What is the file format for creating a music CD that can be played in any home CD player? Is the Wave file the only format available, or is there another way to burn the CD?

I hope this compiles the major questions. Any responses based on actual use of the machine would be helpful.



[This message has been edited by Jake Johnson (edited 07-22-2000).]
 
SCSI seems unclear so switch to adat.

buy an adat card and tranfer all 24 channels per block of 8. on top of that, you can record directly to pc via the fostex if wanted, after final edit/mix on pc burn it on pc.

it is obvious that the manual has been translated from japanese. i sent mail to UK ditributer. anyone know mail from fostex US or Japan so we ask the guys who should know before anyone of us blows up his pc and/or vf16

johan
 
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