Versatile Guitar Amp Setup

[borat3]

Hi I'm new to these forums and am posting this because I've been spending too much time trying to Google answers for my questions. So to start, I have a stratocaster, a nice tube amp combo, and a Mac. I do have some nice speakers I could use as monitors but let's assume for now that I don't because they are big and heavy. Can anybody suggest a recording rig based off of the following requirements, keeping in mind that I am on a low budget:

1. Setup must use the amp because it is really good sounding .

2. I want the setup to allow me to use some virtual/software/modelling effects with my amp so I can have a versatile sound yet still high quality cuz the only digital thing would be the effects.

3. I want to be able to hear in real time through my amp the same or similar sound as is being recorded, instead of using headphones. Also, the problem with just doing guitar to amp to mic to mic preamp to computer and then using virtual effects is that I don't get to hear the virtual effects out of my amp which is no fun

What I was thinking, but I don't know if it would work, is getting a mic and a Line 6 Toneport UX1 or 2 and using it for virtual effects and as a mic preamp at the same time. Like this:
Guitar -> Toneport (connected to computer via usb for effects) -> Amp -> Mic -> Toneport (for its mic preamp) -> Computer for recording

Any other ideas?

 

[bstarstudios]

the ux1 LOOKS LIKE (not 100% sure) it only allows one channel at a time so you cant use the mic and line at the same time. the ux2 does allow 2 channels.

youd also need a way to split the signal from your guitar so one goes to the amp and one goes to the toneport.

 

[borat3]

the ux1 LOOKS LIKE (not 100% sure) it only allows one channel at a time so you cant use the mic and line at the same time. the ux2 does allow 2 channels.

Thanks for the reply Well I looked up the UX1 and saw some forums (like http://uk.line6.com/supportarchive/thread/52187)talking about using it with a guitar and mic at the same time to record, so it should be okay. If not then I could just get UX2.

youd also need a way to split the signal from your guitar so one goes to the amp and one goes to the toneport.

I could be wrong, but splitting the signal like this wouldn't allow me to actually hear the virtual effects through my amp, which is probably the most important thing for me. I don't just want a mic'd effectless amp and a DI guitar signal with effects because then the sound in the room would be of a clean amp, but what is recording could be something completely different. So what I was thinking was out of the toneport and into the amp.

 

[ocnor]

I want to be able to hear in real time through my amp the same or similar sound as is being recorded, instead of using headphones.

If you don't use headphones then how do you plan on hearing the click track or other instrument tracks. Will those be coming out of your guitar amp as well?

 

[borat3]

No it wouldn't come out of my guitar amp because I have heard that the tube amp can color drum and other instrument tracks in a weird way. I would probably listen to the other tracks through headphones or tiny computer speakers or my big hulky speakers. But I still want to be able to hear the guitar with virtual effects out of the amp for my own entertainment purposes and record that sound out of the tube amp because the quality will be better than using an emulated amp.

 

[ocnor]

 

[Lt. Bob]

No it wouldn't come out of my guitar amp because I have heard that the tube amp can color drum and other instrument tracks in a weird way. I would probably listen to the other tracks through headphones or tiny computer speakers or my big hulky speakers. But I still want to be able to hear the guitar with virtual effects out of the amp for my own entertainment purposes and record that sound out of the tube amp because the quality will be better than using an emulated amp.

sorry but that's not a good way to set it up is what ocnor is saying.
You're simply going to HAVE to use headphones to do any multi tracking and so you wouldn't be able to hear your amp in the room very well.

I'm sure there are ways to send your guitar directly into the 'puter, apply fx and then send THAT to your amp. But then you're basically re-amping and will be sending a line level signal to your guitar amp which will NOT sound the same as when you plug your guitar direct into the amp. That great sound you're getting out of your amp will be completely changed.
And unless the guitar amp is going to be in a different room, you can't use the monitor speakers during tracking either. You don't need to use an emulated amp to use the virtual fx and with the fact that the amp is guitar level signal and the fx would be a line level, I doubt they'll sound better thru your amp than simply applying them to the mic'd sound of your amp.
There's a reason that headphones are used in even high-end studios during tracking and it has little to do with keeping fx in the virtual realm since they use phones even in all analog studios.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I don't just want a mic'd effectless amp and a DI guitar signal with effects because then the sound in the room would be of a clean amp, but what is recording could be something completely different.

with headphones you'd be hearing what is being recorded.

 

[borat3]

Thanks for putting up with my stupidity I understand what you guys are saying. It seems like I will have to make some sort of a compromise in my demands. Maybe just run guitar > amp > mic > mic preamp > computer for post-virtual effects and recording > headphones or monitors if guitar amp is in different room. Darn I didn't know that the line level signal would be crap through my guitar amp.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Darn I didn't know that the line level signal would be crap through my guitar amp.

well, different anyways ..... ...... thing is, a guitar puts out a pretty low level signal compared to a line level so the two signals will drive your amp in very different ways..
And that's not all ...... you also have impedance matching issues which will affect freq responses and such.
So if you're really liking your sound with the git into the amp ...... you don't really want to change that since getting a good sound in the first place isn't always all that easy and if you have one ..... why change it?

I see what you're wanting to do but most of the time you're gonna have to be using phones to hear the other tracks you're playing along with so you may as well optimize for that set-up.

 

[borat3]

This would explain why I never saw any setups like this when I Googled it cuz it just doesn't really work. I guess it leaves me with only a couple options. I really like the idea of using software effects somehow cuz I dont have the money to buy effects pedals AND recording stuff right now, but I would still like something more than just a clean guitar sound. What's the quality like if I record my amp with a mic and mic preamp and use Guitar Rig or Amplitube for post-effects like echo, delay, distortion? Are there any other better ways for me to record with good quality and a fairly low budget, like using an attenuator's line out or a hardware speaker simulator direct to computer, or would these lose the quality of micing a real amp? There are also multi-FX units that have mic preamps in them, so maybe I could actually use my original idea but with one of these type units instead of an interface with software effects. I think the Digitech GNX4 and the Zoom X3 are capable of this. Are there any others within a low price range?

 

[Lt. Bob]

The general consensus is that the very best is to mic an actual amp.
You have to spend some time dialing in mic positions though.
Moving a mic an inch to one side or angling it slightly different can make surprisingly huge differences in how it sounds.
But amp into a mic is considered best by most of us although there are those that go for modelers. They're a minority but pretty vocal about it!

ummm, I don't do puter recording actually, I'm more of an analog type set-up but I don't see why you couldn't use the fx's in Amplitude or Guitar Rig as long as you can turn off the amp and cabinet emulators.
You can do that right? JUST use the fx's? If so, that's what I'd do.
Alternatively you could indeed grab a cheapo multifx but if you already have Amplitude or Guitar Rig or both that would definitely be the place to start. That's even cheaper than cheap ...... it's paid for! And it's probably more tweakable than a cheapo multifx.
However ..... a multifx would have the advantage of getting your total sound thru your guitar amp and even the cheapos are pretty good sounding nowadays.
Kinda depends on how broke you are ....... you can never have too much gear ...... an inexpensive multifx is something that any guitar player can find many uses for ...... I like to leave one in my cord bag all the time for emergencies including having someone's amp go out. I know I can always run that into the PA and have a rig no matter what.

 

[borat3]

Yeah you can just use the effects in those programs, but I wonder if it would sound weird being after the amp and speakers. Most real effects pedals go before the amp, so would doing these virtual effects after the amp sound weird or anything? Kinda a random question, but is a closet that is somewhere between a walk-in and a small closet, a good place to mic an amp? If so, I could mic the amp in there and have speakers for monitoring in the normal room.

 

[mjbphotos]

I use guitar>Guitarport (to computer)>Podfarm (software)>lineout>amp and have not noticed a problem with level. Some amps these days have line-in inputs, too. But I use a stand-alone recorder, not computer recording.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Yeah you can just use the effects in those programs, but I wonder if it would sound weird being after the amp and speakers. Most real effects pedals go before the amp, so would doing these virtual effects after the amp sound weird or anything? Kinda a random question, but is a closet that is somewhere between a walk-in and a small closet, a good place to mic an amp? If so, I could mic the amp in there and have speakers for monitoring in the normal room.

well ...... it's true that most fx pedals are for in front of an amp but using the Amplitude stuff would be more like having a rack mount that's designed to go into an fx loop.
It's pretty much intended to deal with line levels or at least the interface is. So you're essentially looking at an fx loop sort of set-up and they can sound just fine.
Or like a soundman putting some delay or chorus on the guitar as it goes thru the PA. That's done all the time and doesn't sound weird. Or in a big time studio they'll put all kinds of stuff on tracks at mixdown and many of our favorite albums have that sort of fx use.

But the easiest thing to do is try it.
You already have the stuff right?
So hook it up that way and try it and see how it does..
I'm gonna predict it'll sound fine.

Personally, except for distortion, I tend to put fx on after tracking the guitar anyway.
I get my distortion out of the amp and then delays and modulation get put on after the fact. That way I can change them as needed in the final mix. I do think that distortions and overdrives need to go into the amp because part of their use is to drive the amp in a certain way.

And I do understand that having fx can affect how you play the git but you can have the virtual fx on in your headphones so you'll play the way you do if, say, you're using a lot of delay .... but the effect doesn't get actually permanently put on the guitar until mix down.

But look ..... one of the most useful things in a studio is to be able to patch things together in different ways.
ALL of these things can have their uses. It may even be that you'll end up using the very set-up that ocnor and I have said isn't the best way to go.
I'm mainly saying that because you really need a good headphone monitoring set-up ..... if for no other reason then for vocals. You simply HAVE to use headphones if you're gonna track vocals over tracks IMO.

But don't let anyone tell you there are hard and fast rules for all this.
Yeah, there are general guidelines and it's true that some of us that have been doing this a long time have zero'd in on techniques that make things easier or more efficient. It's kinda a pain to change monitoring set-ups for different things you're recording which is why I've said you should have 'phones and optimize things for that. The time and effort used to change your monitoring set-up from hearing your amp in the room to using 'cans for vocals is time that can be spent recording. And the industry standard is to use 'phones. There's a reason for that.
But part of the fun is discovery and finding your own way so don't be afraid to try stuff.

Example: let's say you try using things set-up to use the virtual fx both ways ..... one just inside the recorder and one where they actually go into your amp.
And let's say there's no difference in sound. Well now you know ..... ....... or let's say that the virtual fx sound like crap into your amp but sound great used in the recorder. Once again ...... now you'll know why no one does it that way.
At this point it's all learning experience for you so it's not like it's a waste of time.

 

[borat3]

Thanks for all the great advice! I actually don't have the mic and mic-preamp, so I will have to go get those at some point, once I'm 100% confident that it is what I want. I most likely won't be doing vocals, so that isn't really a problem, and there is a chance I will just record solo guitar tracks.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Thanks for all the great advice! I actually don't have the mic and mic-preamp, so I will have to go get those at some point, once I'm 100% confident that it is what I want. I most likely won't be doing vocals, so that isn't really a problem, and there is a chance I will just record solo guitar tracks.

cool ...... keep me posted ...... I'm interested in how this turns out for ya'.

So what gear do you actually have at this point?

 

[borat3]

I have a Fender Strat, a Deluxe Reverb, and a MacBook. Oh yeah, I also have stuff that will suffice as monitors, including good headphones and speakers. No mic, mic preamp, or interface at all. Here's the deal: I want to record tracks, but I'm on a low-budget, so I'm trying to find a way to record with pretty good quality and while also being able to vary my guitar sound from my dry sound, to an Eric Johnson type clean sound with echo, or to even a Canon Rock-esque sound. And seeing as I can't possibly dish out the money for all the effects it would take to get that kind of variation in sound plus the recording equipment, I'm left with the option of using either a multi-fx pedal or effects software.

 

[ocnor]

So really you just need a mic like an SM57, an interface with built in preamps, and recording software. Record the amp dry and add effects plugins to the track afterward.

 

[borat3]

Yeah that's the way it's looking right now, unless I go down a different path, like a cheap version of a palmer speaker simulator or some setup like that and ditch a mic all together, but then I would lose sound quality. However, Jack Thammarat, for what it's worth, gets a good Eric Johnson tone without micing his amp and just using MFX, an amp head, and a Speaker Simulator, but even that setup is fairly expensive for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmoIu-qyNS8