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Greg_L
Banned
Yes, absolutely. That's why you don't need to get defensive if someone doesn't like your shit. Bad tones and a bad mix sound like ass no matter what genre it falls under.
Yes, absolutely. That's why you don't need to get defensive if someone doesn't like your shit. Bad tones and a bad mix sound like ass no matter what genre it falls under.
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valacirca
New member
But jeff's comment said nothing about the tone or mix. What are you pertaining to?
The point I was making was that Jeff's comment, which you seconded, seemed to be comment that was more on the composition rather than the recording. Thus, the reply was about what jeff commented on. If it was about the recording, then I would have said something about the recording.
The point I was making was that Jeff's comment, which you seconded, seemed to be comment that was more on the composition rather than the recording. Thus, the reply was about what jeff commented on. If it was about the recording, then I would have said something about the recording.
jeffmaher
New member
The tone and the mix, if this were a 'practice' recording, would be worthy of assay.
This project is your attempt to create a commercially viable work. Until you create music that is worthy of recording well, and having appeal, there isn't really a point to recording it expertly. Cart before horse.
Sometimes ambient, science fiction drone, etc, is appealing and inspired. Lid's stuff, as ambient, is appealing. Not much in the way of theme. If you introduce a theme, it has to do more than repeat itself until fatigue sets in, and the work, frustrate a listener. There are psyco-mechanical considerations to address.
A lot of 'ambient' composers hide lack of creativity by stretching ideas to fill time....like some kind of sound filling the length will suffice.
I'd remind you that Picasso was a superior artist who could paint beautiful, realist, works...before he set off into abstract.
A lot of artists dive into the abstract with no foundation in tradition...and fail miserably. The key is that effective abstract visual art is based upon the learning that precedes it.....knowing where to bend and stretch ideas while maintaining interest and aesthetics.
Ambient is an abstract form. To make it effective and appealing, you need to appreciate and experience and apply the art of crafting along traditional lines.
Classical 20th century composers who used devices like '12-tone row' to create the musical equivalent of Picasso's murals knew their harmony, and could play and analyze and appreciate Bach.
That's why I'm encouraging you to divest yourself of an hour of space to fill with sound, and attempt to make prettier music for much shorter durations, and THEN record it well....before you hit a wall...spending all that time and money producing a nicely packaged CD ...boxes of which will sit in you closet until you die...and be pitched in the trash by you heirs.
I wasn't panning your efforts or dreams...just trying to tell you you should start at the beginning. And the beginning of your dream is crafting ideas. Recording considerations are a few years down the road.
IMHO
This project is your attempt to create a commercially viable work. Until you create music that is worthy of recording well, and having appeal, there isn't really a point to recording it expertly. Cart before horse.
Sometimes ambient, science fiction drone, etc, is appealing and inspired. Lid's stuff, as ambient, is appealing. Not much in the way of theme. If you introduce a theme, it has to do more than repeat itself until fatigue sets in, and the work, frustrate a listener. There are psyco-mechanical considerations to address.
A lot of 'ambient' composers hide lack of creativity by stretching ideas to fill time....like some kind of sound filling the length will suffice.
I'd remind you that Picasso was a superior artist who could paint beautiful, realist, works...before he set off into abstract.
A lot of artists dive into the abstract with no foundation in tradition...and fail miserably. The key is that effective abstract visual art is based upon the learning that precedes it.....knowing where to bend and stretch ideas while maintaining interest and aesthetics.
Ambient is an abstract form. To make it effective and appealing, you need to appreciate and experience and apply the art of crafting along traditional lines.
Classical 20th century composers who used devices like '12-tone row' to create the musical equivalent of Picasso's murals knew their harmony, and could play and analyze and appreciate Bach.
That's why I'm encouraging you to divest yourself of an hour of space to fill with sound, and attempt to make prettier music for much shorter durations, and THEN record it well....before you hit a wall...spending all that time and money producing a nicely packaged CD ...boxes of which will sit in you closet until you die...and be pitched in the trash by you heirs.
I wasn't panning your efforts or dreams...just trying to tell you you should start at the beginning. And the beginning of your dream is crafting ideas. Recording considerations are a few years down the road.
IMHO
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Greg_L
Banned
I agree with what jeff said. It didn't have anything to do with your mix. I was just agreeing with his comment. You started trying to defend your music, which is fine but unnecessary. That's basically all I'm saying. Don't worry about anyone liking it.
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valacirca
New member
Hmmm... Firstly, no one said anything about being commercially viable, and I also find it difficult coming to grips with the use of the term "music that is worthy of recording well" because all music is worthy of being recorded well. The only question is if it should.
I also think that it's a bit narrow-minded to conclude that stretching ideas with subtle variations is to hide lack of creativity. Oftentimes, what most people would term as "some kind of sound filling the length" is merely artists prefering to create atmospheres and soundscapes rather than conforming to the common concept of what a song is. Post-Rock musicians such as Godspeed You! Black Emperor and the like have made a living out of this through songs extending up to 20 minutes long, and some other artists even having albums made up of single such tracks that take up to an hour to unfold.
While I agree that there must be a knowledge of fundamentals in order to effectively create the abstract, I think that grasp of these traditional styles are overrated in the sense that you don't have to immerse yourself in them in order to create abstracts. What's more important I think, is constant practice and experimentation, thinking "out of the box" to create unique pieces.
FWIW, I never imagined myself making music with the intent of it being commercially viable, with tangible, nicely packaged copies of it being available for purchase wherever. The only plan really, is to make music through this hobby with primarily my own satisfaction in mind, trying to progressively improve what can be improved on, and then make it available for free online to whoever feels an interest in it. Whatever does or doesn't develop after that is up in the air.
Why does every discourse on one's own music have to be interpreted as a defense?
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Greg_L
Banned
Why does every discourse on one's own music have to be interpreted as a defense?
Because it was a defense. If not, you wouldn't have even acknowledged the criticism. You tried to explain it. People tell me my music is dumb all the time. I'm not gonna try to persuade anyone to like it or explain why they should give it a shot. I honestly couldn't care less.
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Greg_L
Banned
And I totally disagree with Jeff's notion that music has to or should be "commercially viable". Fuck that.
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valacirca
New member
That's exactly my point. Where was the explanation of it and persuasion to like it? If you'll look back at the exchange, Jeff made a comment and the only thing I did was ask where he was coming from, because obviously I would take the same comment and advance the discussion differently with a person who is familiar with those genres than with one who's not.
jeffmaher
New member
We don't disagree. This particular project is intended ....exactly, I think... a commercial project. Album art? A years' work? He's sharing with us before he...what...doesn't offer it for sale?
That is, I agree that music , for its own sake, is great....
But all indications I read are that this is not that.
And I'm not unfamiliar with this type of composition: I have a friend who creates nothing but sci-fi drone. And sells it. We've vetted each others' things...and discussed! And one thing we agree on it that theme-less amorphousness is important. And if its tantric, the repetition has to be really worthy. This work fails on two accounts.
If it's just for yucks and recording experience, Godspeed.
That is, I agree that music , for its own sake, is great....
But all indications I read are that this is not that.
And I'm not unfamiliar with this type of composition: I have a friend who creates nothing but sci-fi drone. And sells it. We've vetted each others' things...and discussed! And one thing we agree on it that theme-less amorphousness is important. And if its tantric, the repetition has to be really worthy. This work fails on two accounts.
If it's just for yucks and recording experience, Godspeed.
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Greg_L
Banned
It appeared to me that you were implying that he doesn't know what he's talking about unless he is familiar with the bands you mentioned, and it still seems that way.
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valacirca
New member
^ When it comes to matters of taste, no one can tell anyone else otherwise. He doesn't like it, that's that. I was just figuring out where he was coming from.
It's shared as it comes, and then when it's done then it's done and on to the next one. Quite simple, really. And aside from the fact that it simply looks prettier to me with the art and bandcamp pretty much encourages the artist to cook one up, the cover was merely put in place because it something identifiable to the project. I recently contributed one of my tracks to a compilation album being put together by another community I'm a member of and that too has a cover art. That too will simply be shared over the internet non-commercially.
Of all the possible things to be discussed here, I had no idea "commercial viability" was going to be one.
Why can't it be "He's sharing, period"? Does there have to be a goal beyond the creation of an album? I don't get what album art and sharing the music as it is has to do with the project being a commercial rather than a personal one.
It's shared as it comes, and then when it's done then it's done and on to the next one. Quite simple, really. And aside from the fact that it simply looks prettier to me with the art and bandcamp pretty much encourages the artist to cook one up, the cover was merely put in place because it something identifiable to the project. I recently contributed one of my tracks to a compilation album being put together by another community I'm a member of and that too has a cover art. That too will simply be shared over the internet non-commercially.
Of all the possible things to be discussed here, I had no idea "commercial viability" was going to be one.
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jeffmaher
New member
OK. I withdraw my comments bearing on 'commercial viability'. The music is what it is.
Let's talk about the recording.
The orchestration sounds like a hissing hive of bees. The individual instruments have no impact. Overall tinny, hissy, and ineffective. [I just played K-dub's trilogy...still in my ears...a good reference].
My girlfriend is here...and just listened to your cut one in-full. Not a musician, but likes music, and has taste. [she is a big fan of native American 'ambient'.] She was shakin' her head.
Unsolicited comments:
"Doesn't sound like it's going anywhere."
"Too long for what it is."
"Too repitious...and not in a good way."
"I'm waiting to hear something."
"Doesn't move me." [and she can really move]
"Bland"
Commercial viability simply means 'people will find it appealing'
She also says that if it's for your own amusement, that's fine. Me too.
Let's talk about the recording.
The orchestration sounds like a hissing hive of bees. The individual instruments have no impact. Overall tinny, hissy, and ineffective. [I just played K-dub's trilogy...still in my ears...a good reference].
My girlfriend is here...and just listened to your cut one in-full. Not a musician, but likes music, and has taste. [she is a big fan of native American 'ambient'.] She was shakin' her head.
Unsolicited comments:
"Doesn't sound like it's going anywhere."
"Too long for what it is."
"Too repitious...and not in a good way."
"I'm waiting to hear something."
"Doesn't move me." [and she can really move]
"Bland"
Commercial viability simply means 'people will find it appealing'
She also says that if it's for your own amusement, that's fine. Me too.
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valacirca
New member
Yeah, there's a lot to be desired and improved with the recording of that first track. I tried significantly different things, which I think made the quality of the second track much better --- at least for my ears.
jeffmaher
New member
We just listened to cut 2. Second time for me.
The cymbals are still hissing. Is your listening environment over-deadened in HF's? The acoustic sounds harsh.
The feature instrument is a quarter-tone flat. Was that on-purpose?
Girlfriend:
"Better than first one"
"More space...good"
"But if it had a change-up to rip the pattern..almost feels like it's taking me somewhere...but it's lacking change."
"If it had a spacier thing to it somewhere along the middle....the constant dronal sound repetition reminds me of the first one."
I think her observations confirm what I said:
Once a theme, rythm, and/or cogent idea is introduced, it needs to morph to remain interesting. An amorphic work cannot frustrate, because no pattern is set...there's nothing to repeat.
The cymbals are still hissing. Is your listening environment over-deadened in HF's? The acoustic sounds harsh.
The feature instrument is a quarter-tone flat. Was that on-purpose?
Girlfriend:
"Better than first one"
"More space...good"
"But if it had a change-up to rip the pattern..almost feels like it's taking me somewhere...but it's lacking change."
"If it had a spacier thing to it somewhere along the middle....the constant dronal sound repetition reminds me of the first one."
I think her observations confirm what I said:
Once a theme, rythm, and/or cogent idea is introduced, it needs to morph to remain interesting. An amorphic work cannot frustrate, because no pattern is set...there's nothing to repeat.
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drumslinger
New member
Valacirca,
Six Hundred Wings kind of reminds me of early Pink Floyd. I like where you are going with this but it's missing a nice lead. Not a ripping lead but something with flavor. The snare has a little rumble but overall cool track. The first track Archistratege seems to have a buzzing or white noise at times, probably from the grunge guitar. The drums are pushed back and the bass drum lacks definition. Toms sound good but the cymbals need a little work. Hi-hat cuts nicely. The bass guitar has some low end rumble but with a little tweaking can be defined.
DS
Six Hundred Wings kind of reminds me of early Pink Floyd. I like where you are going with this but it's missing a nice lead. Not a ripping lead but something with flavor. The snare has a little rumble but overall cool track. The first track Archistratege seems to have a buzzing or white noise at times, probably from the grunge guitar. The drums are pushed back and the bass drum lacks definition. Toms sound good but the cymbals need a little work. Hi-hat cuts nicely. The bass guitar has some low end rumble but with a little tweaking can be defined.
DS
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valacirca
New member
^ Thanks for the comment. I really have to rework that first track with the workflow I used for the second track to improve the quality... It seems most people are commenting about the drums. Unfortunately, that seems like the area I can do the least work on since I'm using Drumcore for it 
The most I can do is EQ the drum track. As for the bass, yeah I agree with the low-end rumble; that was my mistake when I recorded that. I had the tone knob all the way down on the bass guitar because there was a lot of buzz coming from it when the tone knob was up. I found a solution to it already.
The most I can do is EQ the drum track. As for the bass, yeah I agree with the low-end rumble; that was my mistake when I recorded that. I had the tone knob all the way down on the bass guitar because there was a lot of buzz coming from it when the tone knob was up. I found a solution to it already.What feature instrument?
jeffmaher
New member
The one-note guitar going 'boyoyoyoyoyoying'
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Greg_L
Banned
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valacirca
New member
It's called a delay and it does have pitch modulation since I'm using an EHX Memory Boy set to a certain chorus depth.
jeffmaher
New member
Your ears are OK with it? The chorus depressed the pitch.....or the guitar was out of tune. Kind of a severe effect, if planned, for ambient, no?