vague instructions

[BrettB]

Hi all,

I'm a bit in a weird situation here. I'm mixing a metal band at the moment, and the producer (=the leader of the band) gives me instrctions because he has a really strong idea about how it should sound. Read: he makes completely different decisions I would make. Not that he wants to fuck it up, he just likes things differentely. And as long as the band pays for my time, I don't complain.

We just have a bit of a quarrel about the snare sound and the fact is: I just don't understand what he means!! He gave me a reference Cd (Arch Enemy if someone knows it) with a very unnatural kinda snare sound and he wants to reproduce it.

The snare is recorded with a Beta 57 on top, and I EQ'ed it very heavy (took out the high mids, gave some low and high end boosts, he didn't wanted a natural sound), mixed a big, short reverb gently with a long verb and I thought I reproduced the sound he wanted pretty well seen the circomstances.

But he hates the sound, and I really don't understand what he wants me to do know. I get vague instructions (It should get another 'tak', more basdrum sound, more 'evil' ), I try to re-EQ and play with the verbs but I don't seem to get what he wants and we both get frustrated.

So, my questions:

First: Any ideas on the snare sound?

Second: How often do you guys get frustrated by vague instructions?

 

[mshilarious]

Which Arch Enemy album? I listened to some but the snare sounded very standard.

Ah, just throw some reverse gate on it

 

[ryanlikestorock]

Maybe the people here can help identify the effects used on the snare sound he wants?

I'd try and talk to the client about coming up with a new sound to call your own, based on the qualities he likes about the sample he's given you. There's a good chance the snare sound in the sample recording was acheived by the snare itself, the mic, the placement, the way it was recorded as well as the post-production effects. Trying to make up for all those decisions in the mixing process could be fatal to the recording.

If it were my client, I'd supply him with 10 or so samples of what I can do with a snare drum and have him pick which one he likes best. If he's still not happy, maybe show him how to apply effects to the snare and see what he comes up with. Maybe he'll be happier with a sound if he's the one tweaking the knobs. Good luck.

 

[BrettB]

First of all, I forgot to tel l you I did some heavy gating (very short gate, that's how he like it best) and compressing with a bomb factory plugin


ryan, you have a point about the tweaking: I often notice when you let ppl play with an EQ paramter a bit theirwelves, suddenly everything is way better. I'll try to make a few snare samples again, and if he really doesn't liek them either.. well, he'll just have to live with that. Like you say, also placement, microphone type... all have their place, I can't fix all in mixing.

mshilarious, great you know Arch Enemy! The Cd he gave me is called 'Anthems Of Rebellion'. Do you have any extra tips I may not have thought of about achieving that snare?

And sorry to be ignorant, but what do you mean by reverse gate?

 

[dcharatin]

Mic. Samples

I would also try to use a mic. modeler. Get a VST Mic. Modeler and try playing around with different drum mic. companies tones that might help achieve the metal evil tone he is looking for. Hope this helps!

 

[chessrock]

Alright, here's what you do if you really want to have some fun with the guy:

Pull out drumagog and replace all of the snare hits with samples. Only use a sample of something really stupid and silly, like whistles, bells, or fart noises.

Be really convincing and keep a straight face when you tell him that you think you've got some great ideas for him.

Sorry I couldn't really help you much, but I thought that might at least be kinda' cool.

 

[bennychico11]

i get a lot of good results from compressing the SHIT out of the snare drum so it sounds extremely annoying....and then add reverb to it. adding the reverb gets it to decay the way you want but leaving a nice snap on the snare. I find it sounds good on some hard rock tunes and really good in punkish ones. just as idea i guess

 

[ecs113]

sounds like you are asking more how to deal with communication problems than getting a certain snare sound. it may be that fixing the snare in the mix isn't the solution. maybe the guy needs to be more realistic and less "rock-movie". maybe the drummer needs to hit the snare better. maybe the snare drum needs tuned. etc.

try to boil the problem down, hopefully the BS will boil off

 

[Massive Master]

An evil snare sound comes from an evil sounding snare.

This is what I hated about recording more than anything... Bands that have no clue on their own sounds and think that there's an "Evil Snare" knob somewhere... I just don't get it. Bring the evil-sounding snare in, and I'll record the thing, dammit!

The vocalist's voice sounds wimpy because he has a freakin' winpy sounding voice, dammit! The bass sounds like flatulence because the strings on the $75 bass are two weeks old, dammit!

I only recorded what you played, dammit! And guess what - THAT'S WHAT YOU SOUND LIKE!!! If you want your project to sound like Metallica, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BRING IN METLLICA (or at least all of their gear), DAMMIT!!!

AAAAAAARRRRRRGGHGHG!!!







Okay, I'm better now. Sorry. Flashbacks, you know...

 

[BrettB]

hehe, Massive Master, I really recognize this.

The band has a great sound though (if you are a metal fan) and I think the drums sound really good! But he keeps murmuring 'Nonononono' and making weird gestures when we're discussing the snare.

I'm kinda disappointed I wasn't more assertive on this one. Instead of just telling 'Look, I EQ'ed, gated, and compressed the shit out of it, I used a verb similar to that example recording', I just kept fiddling with the knobs and trying to reproduce something different to please him.

He was talking about searching a drum sample and putting it below every snare hit. I have no plugin to trigger one (anyone have any suggestions which RTAS plugin I can use for this?) so when he wants a sample, that's one of his only options.

I told him he can do it, but I won't put my time in it. He comes again tomorrow, I 'll try to be more clear then.

 

[mshilarious]

mshilarious, great you know Arch Enemy! The Cd he gave me is called 'Anthems Of Rebellion'. Do you have any extra tips I may not have thought of about achieving that snare?

And sorry to be ignorant, but what do you mean by reverse gate?

No I didn't know them, I just listened to samples on amazon.com. Unfortunately Anthems doesn't have any samples, and from fan comments I see that the sound on that is different from their previous album 'Wages of Sin', which is the one I did listen to (had a cover of an old Maiden favorite "Aces High"). That just sounds like a big fat well damped snare, and the clicking of the kick is so hot you don't really notice the snare that much.

Reverse gate is a gated reverb that is then reversed so the swell comes before the hit. Technically you have to reverb, then reverse the track to get it right, but many reverbs have a 'reverse gate' setting that emulates the effect.

 

[masteringhouse]

Hi all,

I'm a bit in a weird situation here. I'm mixing a metal band at the moment, and the producer (=the leader of the band) gives me instrctions because he has a really strong idea about how it should sound. Read: he makes completely different decisions I would make. Not that he wants to fuck it up, he just likes things differentely. And as long as the band pays for my time, I don't complain.

We just have a bit of a quarrel about the snare sound and the fact is: I just don't understand what he means!! He gave me a reference Cd (Arch Enemy if someone knows it) with a very unnatural kinda snare sound and he wants to reproduce it.

The snare is recorded with a Beta 57 on top, and I EQ'ed it very heavy (took out the high mids, gave some low and high end boosts, he didn't wanted a natural sound), mixed a big, short reverb gently with a long verb and I thought I reproduced the sound he wanted pretty well seen the circomstances.

But he hates the sound, and I really don't understand what he wants me to do know. I get vague instructions (It should get another 'tak', more basdrum sound, more 'evil' ), I try to re-EQ and play with the verbs but I don't seem to get what he wants and we both get frustrated.

So, my questions:

First: Any ideas on the snare sound?

Second: How often do you guys get frustrated by vague instructions?

Personally I would just sample the snare sound from the original CD (probably used samples as well). There really can't be any complaint that it doesn't sound like the original then.

When frustrated by vague instructions, I usually let the client take a more active role in the production. Often times their frustration is due to a lack of control. Getting them involved makes them feel that they are more in control of the process, and allows them to demonstrate better what they can't explain. It also makes them feel more a part of a "team" rather than being dictated to by the engineer/producer.

 

[Ronan]

He was talking about searching a drum sample and putting it below every snare hit. I have no plugin to trigger one (anyone have any suggestions which RTAS plugin I can use for this?)

Sound Replacer.

 

[BrettB]

Too bad the trial period of that sound replacer plugin expired and I don't have money for the entire version.

mshilarious: I only have D-verb, my reverb possibilities are pretty restricted. I'll try the reverse gate thing manually. The BD of the band are also done by a trigger, that just triggers samples, and there they also have that really sharp attacky kickdrum sound they wanted, just like Arch Enemy. And the snare drums doesn't sound unnatural in the way of 'completely wacko', but it is a sound I can't really reproduce with the snare I recorded.

Another thing that would do the trick is mixing the snare with a pitch shifting signal, but I don't have a pitch shift plug in in Pro Tools LE that stays in time.

 

[mshilarious]

mshilarious: I only have D-verb, my reverb possibilities are pretty restricted. I'll try the reverse gate thing manually.

OK, but please note the sarcastic smiley face next to my original suggestion. It's the Def Leppard "Pour Some Sugar On Me" snare sound.

However a really really short reverse gate might sound evil, who knows . . .

 

[BrettB]

I could try, you never know. I won't be surprised with what they want.

For example, I think their bass sound really sucks. It doesn't suck in the way of 'that sounds amateur', it just is a matter of taste. They want lots of highs and that string slapping sound you als o hear with Korn. I had mixed the bass is gently, with a bit of a low boost and a bell around 200-300Hz to make it survive on smaller stereos, but that wasn't enough for them. 'You should here it seperately' they tell me, so I have to put in a lot of rubbish frequencies in them ( a lot of 3K and higher) to make it sound like they want to.

 

[BrettB]

I copied the snare, and pitch shifted it a few tones lower, and mixed that with the original snare. Maybe this will sound more evil to him.