uuuuhhh mixing vocals is so strange

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YEAH! it's me again... who else with THAT subject?

Today I recorded a swiss children-song in a HIM-style... just for fun. Easy powerchords and a really low voice (mine, of course) starting at the "low guitar E" (what's the correct name of it???).
I was very surprised realizing that I had sooooo few to do to make all sound well... especially the vocals. Just a low cut at 100 Hz, some reverb - that's it, and it sounded just great.

Unfortunately that's not the kind of songs I do normally. I prefer that old-style party rock like Bon Jovi, Poison and stuff.
These vocals are at least 1 to 2 octaves higher and I really got the impression that it's quite more difficult and a completely different way to get them sounding well.

So if I manage to get the very low register vocals sound acceptable - how do I treat the high ones in relation?

Two more reasons for that difference could be my voice or my mic... but hey - I think my voice is quite as "good" as axl roses' - and Gn'R mixes were sold ;-). Now only the mic is left... but if it's crap, everything sung thru it should sound bad, shouldn't it, and compared to "good" mic's - like shure and stuff - it doesn't sound really worse.
 
The guitar low E has it's fundamental frequency at 82Hz (I think) and would be an octave lower than the E below middle C (for men-- womens' middle C is an octave higher).

That is solidly in "chest voice", which is probably eaiser for you to get the resonation and placement correct. As you get to the Eb above middle C, the placement will start to move out of the chest and into the head... but it's still a mix at that point. Each semitone above that Eb, the placement should move more and more toward head, until about the Bb or B (you should be out of "mix" voice and pretty much fully in "head voice" at that point).

The placement is key, as that where the sound resonates. Your vocal cords can't resonate much, they can only produce pitch. Like the mouth-piece of a sax, it sounds hollow and weak without a resonation chamber. If you push from the cords too much, you'll just tighten up the jaw and neck muscles which will place more tension on your vocal cords-- ultimately working against you and the pitch-making process (your voice will crack). Not only that, but pushing the vocal cords themselves can cause damage if done too frequently or for a long time.

Describing placement is difficult and I'm just now learning this stuff myself. The advice you don't want to hear is: get a vocal instructor that knows what they're doing. Trust me, you'll thank yourself.
 
believe me... I'd really LOVE to get singing lessons. But nothing in life is free ;-).

I mean I know that my voice isn't that good but I think I can achieve something between axl rose, klaus meine (scorpions), joey tempest (europe)and that def leppard dude (whose upper register is very thin)... (maybe I overate my singing???). they're not THAT good but their voices still sound acceptable in the mix... hmmmm why does mine NOT (this was gramatically not correct, right? ;-))
Listen to Vince Neil's early recordings (motley crue). He sounds like a child sometimes but somehow cool anyway.
There must be a way to make the crappiest voice sound acceptable as long as it is in tune... maybe not with home equipment ;-)
 
There is a difference between just singing on pitch and singing on pitch with power and strength behind the voice. That difference is mostly in breath support and placement. If you can hit the note but it's weak or thin, then chances are it's a technical problem and not a crappy voice.

Your head vibrates and colors the sound you hear when you sing. It might sound full in your own head, but when recorded it sounds lame and thin (that's my case, at least). I used to think I sang "okay", until I started recording it. Then I heard what I was actually projecting outwardly... totally different than what I thought I was projecting. I could have bought all the expensive mics and outboard gear in the world and it wouldn't have fixed my technical problems.

If lessons aren't an option, it makes things harder. You can search the web for info, but it's hard to describe the sensations you should feel when singing. As the pitch changes, the placement changes. The different vowel sounds have different placement. It's tough to learn it by just reading. I tried that approach, and it wasn't enough (and I learned to play drums from the net, mind you :)). I'm still not nearly as consistent as I need to be, even now that I have broken down and found a coach. It would have taken me forever on my own.
 
Yo Six and other involved in voice placement:

What I do, and I'm not a singer, but I get away with doing vocals in my studio: But, before any vocal attempt, I have 3/4 of a martini; that places all of my tensions and chords in a phantasmagorical state; then when I play back my vocal even I enjoy it; of course by that time, I'm on the second martini.

Green Hornet
 
Greenie - What do you do with all the extra 1/4 martinis?? :)
 
Yo Sachey and Dachay2tnr:

The other 1/4 martini? It evaporates!

Green Hornet
 
Aha! You're not drinking them fast enough. BTW, does it make any difference if they're gin or vodka martini's?
 
I didn't try the martini-thing but...

... pglewis, although I'm not Freddie Mercury I figured out that my voice didn't suck that much but my equipment.
first of all I was told that "in real" I don't sound the way I sound on my recordings. then I figured out that on my recordings I don't sound the way I sounded on that record I made in a pro-studio... how could I, with a mic that seems to have no response above 3.8 kHz??? last but not least I listened to some oooooooold muddy waters recordings and his voice sucked in the same way mine does.

I remember that school-talent-show where a friend of mine sang thru a very bad wire-less mic... some of the listeners thought that he's voice was 'not that good'. maybe he's not the best singer, but I know that his voice sounds great without that crappy mic.

so, what I wanted to say, mr. pglewis, sometimes it MIGHT be the equipment... darn, don't discourage me that much ;-)
 
My two cents

PG is right of course. If you've never had any vocal coaching at all, just spring for one or two lessons. Learn how to breathe and channel the air a little better and take it from there.

The guys you're talking about actually sing correctly even though it may not sound that way at first blush.

When you listen to your own voice played back to you, try to put aside the fact that it just sounds different than it sounds in your head (which makes everyone feel strange at first) and think about whether you're really sustaining notes and sounding relaxed.

From what I've read, you probably need a half-decent condensor mic to have any chance of recording your voice well. What are you using?

I'm no engineer, but in my limited experience I've had some success adding a little eq in the 3-4 Khz range (although I've also read it should be more like 8-10).
 
The problem with jumping octaves

Welllll........... the problem when U jump down an octave from something..... is that the harmonies won't sound the same. Lower octave harmonies tend to be much more disonant at closer intervals. So if your singing nice harmony with the geetar normally it will sound great, but if you drop it an octave there is a chance the harmonies will get muddy and a little dissonant =)

Sing it up the octave if U can(I know itz hard I'm a bass singer too, Low C to high E flat)

Sabith
 
If I were you, I'd be hoping it's just technical problems and not gear, Six. Gear-fixes are much more expensive than a couple of vocal lessons. But you're right, it could be a gear related problem. I brought up technique since no one else had mentioned it in the thread.
 
Yo: Ref. Martinis


Good Gin has Juniper berries in it and is somewhat an anti-oxident.

Vodka: has the least amount of chemical that causes hangover.

Either one is acceptable; forget the Vermouth.

Add freshly made stuffed green olive with a paper-toweled anchovie.

Sit back and take care with the evaporation.

I do the gin at this point in time.

Green Hornet
 
Yo: Ref. Martinis


Good choice. My recommendation is Tanquery or Bombay. BTW, mine never seem to evaporate (although they do disappear somewhat quickly).
 
hello,another 2 cents here.though i might be speaking way out of turn,have you tried warming up?you'll notice that when you go in singing cold ,you're going to have so many unforseeable problems.many of the singers you had mentioned are pretty throaty and nasally,and so therefore really need to warm up.when singing out of the diaphragm equal amount of warming up is necessary as well but not as many detrimental consequences.

personally myself,i enjoy most all styles of music and even love to attempt all genres.anywhere from belting out deep down in the chest crying blues to tender ballads to gut wrenching node destroying heavy metal.am i successful at this?probably not,and recieve criticism more than not.but,it feels real good.and through experience by playing on the streets forever and some,that my voice would really start hitting the notes i wanted and it sounded like(inside my head)that i could really wail after singing straight for a few hours.i know the lessons aren't in your budget,but do try to warm up for an hour before you seriously try singing.and you don't need to warm up like an opera singer going mi mi mi do re mi ,but just singing out loud.note the differenmce between your low voice singing and when you try to hit those ungodly high metal notes.you will actually feel the voice coming from different parts of your body.if you ever heard james brown sing,thats the throat destroying type voice,but he gets some very monumental screams.you mentioned a blues singer,i am not sure of the comparison you were making.was it an opinion of muddy?or just a recording you heard?me personally(again)(and mind you,this is just an opinion)but i couldn't equate muddy waters singing ,(or anything for that matter)with the word suck,he siang from his chest and belted out from diaphragm.this style can be very loud and is best for a live situation.and then we got howling wolf,completely from the throat,equate cigarettes and whiskey:voila an effect that is killer,yet a voice that won't last too long.

oh (i have already gone off for too long,what's the difference if i say a couple hundred more words?)and for all those making comments about liquor and singing.be wary of certain liquids and how it effects your voice,certain alcoholic becverages can destroy your performance minutes before.temperature,sugar ,all this has major influence on your voice(as well as your brain). one trick i learned that has really helped in a stitch.drambuie!!!!if your voice is gone,and you need to sing that night,drambuie be the sweet elixer!!i used to have to sing gigs with no voice and got turned on to the drambuie trick,and lo and behold...my voice would come back everytime,just in time for the gig!ok i 've ramled on long enough,i hope i made some sense,and at least gave some sensible help.good luck
 
thanks, mojovoodoo

first of all - no, I do not warm up though I know you should... but hey: I once made a record coming right out of bed and I could yell like tina turner... that was quite cool 'cause I was recording "proud mary" :-).
I'm still wondering how I did that!

about that muddy waters thing: I meant his voice sucked on THAT special ooooold recording (with ooooooold, shitty equipment, probably) which was one of the reasons I started to think that it COULD be my equipment... and I was RIGHT, partially.

I now have a better mic and my recordings sound the way I thought I sounded... still not jon bon jovi but at least I get recorded what I sing.

but I still have one problem: how loud do I have to sing (really!!!)? the recordings sound like sung at a low level but I sing at the level where I think I can achieve the best tone (which is a bit above speaking level)... any suggestions?
 
six,describe your microphone technique?it's obvious you have a bit of knowledge with the afore-mentioed subject,but i am curious to the way you record in the studio.is your live mic technique similar to the way you do it in the studio?let us all know .there are people that have some amazing tips and advice to contribute here.i can dig that singing out of bed you can get the best results from the oddest of situations.
 
good one, that!

live!!!? are you joking? i wouldn't ever annoy someone with my singing unless I like it myself.
for the moment i'm just a home-recorder (don't say "the way you record in the studio") wanting to sing my own songs.

beeing on a low budget I use a dynamic microphone into a nice pre-amp. I know you should use a condenser for vocals, but this way I _could_ use it live too.

mic technique? standing there and singing into the mic with my mouth about 1 to 2 inches away from the mic :-), singing at the level you would in a car... maybe.

but I once was in that pro-studio and I really yelled into the condenser... it didn't sound different from singing at that in-the-car-level.
 
For recording, you should be further away from the mic, especially with a condensor, but with a dynamic mic as well. Try a distance of six inches (which as we all know is a very great distance).
 
how about trying the loudest possible,that you enjoy,but back off from the mic some more,play that and see.or have you tried totally doing it up with full force rocking out and over squashing and over compressing?just to see different results?you probably have and i am just being redundant.seriously six,just warm up a bit and then track a bunch of different ways and you'll see that after a little warming up,you will have an immense amount of control over every nuance just everyt'ing in general.i am getting very frustrated with the way all vocals in my "studio" are tracking ,although i am not doing the singing(that would be easier 'cause i know exactly what i do dynamic wise)when i record the women i work with,it has turned out unacceptable,and that's just due to the fact when i bought my br-8,i said"i need a mic"went to a pawn shop ,paid $20 for an AT dynamic.now i am paying,i realize if i want something i can live with,i need to get a real mic.i mean you noticed that when you sang at the same level into a condenser,it didn't change.probably 'cause it was a good mic and picked up your real performance.i am babbling again,but you said the dynamic is more suitable ,yes?you got a decent pre amp ,it sounds like,tracking a bunch of different ways,i.e.:really hot ,far from the mic,or regular levels righht into it,low ,eating the mic,pumping the pre?all that stuff you would find your little gem of a sound?thus i digresss,you probably already know this stuff and have tried it and i am telling you nothing new.
 
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