Using Outboard Pre's With Mixers ... Or Trying To!

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Rozman

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I am about ready to smash my Mackie 1202 mixer to bits!!! Please give me some perspective on this situation. I am trying to use an RNP and an Aphex 107, mic'ing up a band for rehearsal, with everyone using headphones, and eventually to record at home. The main outs on my Mackie go to a headphone amp. Some mics go into the Mackie directly, some go into the RNP and Aphex 107 first, then into the Mackie.

I've been told by members here that you can bypass the internal pres by running from the outboard pre to the channel insert on the mixer, but, alas, the insert says "pre fader, pre eq." This works okay for micing amps, but the preamps appear to be stacked (can't really bypass the Mackie's pres), and I can't get enough volume on a vocal condenser mic before clipping. Plus, I don't want to mix or stack the preamp sounds of the standalone pres with the Mackie's internal pres. The mic/line inputs dont' work either!!

Who is a newbie to question the sage advice on this forum, but I don't think outboard preamps are compatible with this piece-of-crap mixer. Can the preamps on any lower end mixer be totally bypassed???? Has nobody else run into this problem? No, I don't want to run directly into a recorder!!!

The effects return on a guitar amp (with a loop) bypasses the preamp. Why would one design a mixer without this same option? Am I the only one who ever thought about using an RNP or similar for live performing or rehearsal, running into a small mixer?? Well, for vocals, it just does not work. What a pain in the butt.
 
Yes the inserts are post preamp, and pre fader pre eq.
when you hook up from you outboard preamp, what type of cable are you using? if you are using a TS cable then you should do a "half plug" in the insert jack of the mixer. This will bypass the mixer preamp.
you cannot use a TRS type cable for what you are wanting to do here.
as far as the condensor mic goes, where are you getting your phantom power to power the mic, does your outboard pre have phantom power?
If not you can get outboard phantom power supplys.
 
Thanks, JCM!! I was using the phantom power from the outboard pre (RNP), and using a TRS cable pushed all the way into the insert jack. I tried a TS cable first, again, pushed all the way in, but got no sound at all. Now, I'll try a TS cable but only push it in part way. Thank you!!!

Obviously, I still don't have this TS v TRS thing down. Lots to learn.
 
Rozman said:
Can the preamps on any lower end mixer be totally bypassed???? Has nobody else run into this problem? No, I don't want to run directly into a recorder!!!
.
Click to expand...

I asked this same question sometime ago, using a JM VC1Q on a 2488.

My responses, from some credible sources here, said it didn't matter as the low end pre-amp gain at 0, is bypassed. That was confirmed at work to with tech-geeks.
Its not "fully" going thru the chip and being processed.

If you want to study/debate nats and nano-resistances, thats a different story. Thats a much higher level of science and much lower level of sound improvement than I can hear.

Going direct from a PRe-AMp to the recorder is pretty common I think too?
KISS...keep the path as simple as possible works for me.

good luck.
 
Thanks, Coolcat. I did get this to "work" but it still sounds so much better going direct into my Fostex MR-8 and that bugs me because, for rehearsal, the MR-8 does not fit the bill. It is a recorder, not a mixer and headphone distribution system. It only has 4 mic inputs and 2 headphone outputs. The sound I get through either of those two headphone outputs is super, much better than running through the mixer and headphone amp. Now I want to find out how to get that same quality sound with ten mics going and 4 guys all wearing headphones and listening to a well-balanced mix!!! It never ends.
 
In this case here, the insert point is NOT pre EQ prefader etc.... It is post everything left in its path. Inserts are typically post preamp, and pre EQ and fader, but that is assuming you are using either the onboard line in or mic input. The signal goes directly from whichever headamp youa re using, out the tip of the TRS, pre everything else, but then returns on the ring of the TRS and continues to pass through the rest of the channel strip. By injecting an outboard preamp into an insert return as opposed to a line inout you should be bypassing all of the headamps, and it is quite likely that on that specific channel that you may not be able to use any prefade aux sends, but that part is dependant upon each different consoles topology.
 
You have to push the jack in to the first "click". It might be a bit touchy, you may need to wiggle the jack a bit. Not always the most reliable connection in my experience. If you will be doing this a lot, better to build special cables for the purpose.
 
You can Try getting a Cheap Passive mixer which has no Pre amps and Just Mixes Line level sources....There are a Million of these on e-bay for quite cheap and usually run on a 9v Battery or adapter.....You won"t be able to Plug any Mics into it but it will let you Mix the outputs from your Mackie and the RNP into a stereo signal which you can output to your headphone amp, and because the Mixer is passive there will be Minimal effect on the quality of the Signal (Hopefully...LOL)....

Cheers
 
Rozman said:
Thanks, Coolcat. I did get this to "work" but it still sounds so much better going direct into my Fostex MR-8 and that bugs me because, for rehearsal, the MR-8 does not fit the bill. It is a recorder, not a mixer and headphone distribution system. It only has 4 mic inputs and 2 headphone outputs. The sound I get through either of those two headphone outputs is super, much better than running through the mixer and headphone amp. Now I want to find out how to get that same quality sound with ten mics going and 4 guys all wearing headphones and listening to a well-balanced mix!!! It never ends.
Click to expand...
It almost looks like the issue turns out that the Fostex mixer/head phone just sounds better than the Mackie, and not a 'stacking thing. But for phone' monitors, why would that matter? If you're concern is also tracking at the same time, another option is to split the pre's outs, or go out balanced on the main on the RNP to the recorder, and use the RNP's insert out for an unbalanced monitor out. (That's a TRS cable with T and S solder-bridged at the pre's insert end.
Wayne
 
Thanks Everyone, But ...

But even if I am bypassing the preamps on the mixer, it still sounds as if the mixer is a negative effect on the quality of the signal. Since the channel faders and the main fader still work, there is still some gain and amplification being done by the mixer. I think the problem is that "live" mixer designs totally ignore the desire to have four people monitoring by headphone and most digital recorders do too. Buying an expensive, dedicated headphone monitoring system (Hear Technologies?) is not in the cards, but it sounds like there are no other good options.

I thought of connecting the stereo outs on my recorder to the headphone amp and using the mixer to create a submix for the drummer, and then sending the submix to the recorder. That way, we could have a vocal, guitar and bass mic into the recorder and a line in from the board for the drummer's submix. But I can't figure out how to send a signal from the Mackie to the Fostex!!! This is another source of extreme frustration. I've tried all the outs on the mixer!!!
 
There should not really be any "gain" happening, but the faders definately attenuate, assuming you are at unity or lower. Also, live mixers DO NOT ignore the need for more mixes. In fact, it is the other way around. Live consoles at this point have up to 40 aux busses in the analog domain, and quite possibly more in the digital realm. What you mean is that cheap little consoles do not address this problem in the way you would like. Then again, if they did, they would not be as cheap or as little anymore.
 
I agree with xstatic, you are asking an awful lot of that little Mackie 1202. You call it a piece of crap because it won't do what you want it to do, but it was never designed to do that in the first place.

It should be noted that the inserts do not bypass the channel strip, they bypass the preamps. So yes, the faders, eq, aux sends, etc. will all work. The only difference is that the signal is not going through the preamp.

You mention sending signal to a headphone amp, but it sounds like what you need is a headphone distribution box. There are some inexpensive units out there. Take a look at affordable units from Presonus, Samson, and Behringer just to get you started. I think for under or around $100 you can have the headphone feeds you need.
 
Thanks. I was just trying to figure out what the Mackie can and can't do. Still not sure if I should be able to send a signal from the Mackie to my Foster (record with the mics going into the Mackie instead of to the Fostex directly). I've tried all the holes. I've been told that you can always send signal from almost any mixer to a recorder for recording, but nobody has addressed this aspect of my question. If you guys would not mind, this would really help. Thanks for your patience and sharing your expertise!! The fact that the outs on the Mackie are all pairs of lefts and rights and the "ins" on the recorder are all single input jacks tells me there is some incompatibility between these units.
 
Not really. The main L & R outs on the Mackie could be sent to inputs 1 & 2 on the recorder. You would treat 1 as left and 2 as right, and pan them accordingly. That would be a pretty normal way of doing that.
 
Rozz, you may want to remember this in the future. You might not want to rant about how bad a piece of equipment is just because you do not know how to use it. I do not mean this as a personal attack, but I have to wonder how much you really know about signal flow and proper wiring after seeing this statement... " I've tried all the holes ".

A Mackie 1202 should have at least 4 main outputs. Main left, Main Right, Aux 1 and Aux 2. In addition, any channel insert points can be used as a kind of "poor mans direct out" which give you 4 more outputs if I remember right. All of those outputs can be routed to your Fostex recorder. Typically you would want to plug them into the "line input" for each channel. They could however also be used at the xlr inputs, but you will have to pay extra attention to your gain staging.
 
I do think that the RNP sounds a lot better than the Mackie preamps, but the Mackie preamps aren't so bad that they are unusable for a rehearsal. Just plug in and play. Get on with your life, it's not that big of a deal.

If you were recording, that's another story. Recordings last for a long time, rehearsals last until you stop playing.
 
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