Using Large Diaphrm Condenser's for OH's?

  • Thread starter Thread starter gcapel
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ok I started this thread. I have been doing some test in the lab. Here are my results. I found that sdc are very much needed providing clean clear cymbol hits. I also found using one ldc for a room mic added a nice touch of mid for the entire kit. But nomatter where I put the ldc one or two, I did not find it satisfactory for me not to use close mic's on the toms. All this consedering I tring to get a driving rock sound along the lines of Helmet and Clutch. I the mist of my testing I also found the kick sound i've been looking for. Using a beta52 I put on a res head with the 5" hole and inserted the mic midway into the drum in phase reverse position in the direction of the beater. Now I'm getting punchy kicks istead of a boom.

Thanks to all of you for pointing out things to do / things not to do. I can see how the application is key is the number of mics to use and how to use them.

Garrett
 
On Joe Jackson's "Body and Soul" drums where mics using two Neumann M-50's as overheards, capturing the whole set, preceiving the character of the hall in which the albums was made, with great results. The drums sound big and very natural. Talk Talk's "Spirit of Eden" drums where recorded with only one Neumann U47, 30 feets away, needless to say the drums sound amazing on that album, very natural. So it quite depends on what you want to get.
 
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This is an interesting and ALMOST amusing thread. I must say that even though Chess may have been a bit harsh in some replys (somebosy's gotta fill in for Bruce :D ) he's not wrong.

Many of you guys are making general statments that are half-truths, mis-applications of facts, or just plain false.

I would suggest to everyone to READ THE TWO STICKY THREADS AT THE TOP OF THE MIC FORUM!!!!!!!!!!!

If you are unsure, as a home-recordist, as to the technicalities of pick-up patterns, sensitivity, and off-axis responses, as well as the common applications of these things for tracking ...... these threads have TONS of hard factual info in them. Print out both of these threads and put them somewhere where you can reference them at will during sessions. They are valuble resources.

Congrats to gcapel!! He has hit on and applied the most important technique of all.

"I have been doing some test in the lab. .........nomatter where I put the ldc one or two, I did not find it satisfactory for me not to use close mic's on the toms."

EXPERIMENTING!!!! Take whatever mics you have and try them everywhere until YOU GET THE SOUND YOU WANT.

Obviously we all need to continue to ask INFORMED questions as everyone has something still to learn, even the pros...... but as suggested previously ..... informed questions deserve INFORMED ANSWERS.

READ THE STICKY THREADS.

-mike
 
I know people who use LDC as drum OH, but I tend to dislike the sound they get MOST of the time. When I've used them, I find myself cranking the eq's a lot. So why do that when I can pull out my favorite pair of SDC's and go along just fine with no eq?
 
here we go again... obviously small diaphragm condensers CAN pick up any sound similarly to LDC's... my point is, and still stands that the midrange hump that the LDC's (that i have used) provided me with a very good sound on the toms... why spend the time tuning a SDC when you can do the same damn thing with a stock LDC that you already own??? if i like it, i will use it... and i will tell you that i like it... and apparently this is when everyone decides to argue with me about what i like, and what i hear...I would love to learn more and more and more... and i have learned a lot from people in here, especially the ones who have decided to argue with me. that's pretty disheartening, and i don't understand why everyone has to make a big deal out of any statement that i reply??? this is me... telling of my personal experience... you can't tell me that that's not how i percieved my results, so it's pointless to keep trying.

respectfully,

Jacob
 
People don't mind when you say you've had X experience with Y microphone. They mind when you pass off your experience as "just a fact" like you did in your earlier post.
 
okay... i'll take that. i understand your point, and you're right. that was goofy of me to say that. i appologize for that.

Jacob
 
Jacobi1211 said:
here we go again... obviously small diaphragm condensers CAN pick up any sound similarly to LDC's... my point is, and still stands that the midrange hump that the LDC's (that i have used) provided me with a very good sound on the toms... why spend the time tuning a SDC when you can do the same damn thing with a stock LDC that you already own??? if i like it, i will use it... and i will tell you that i like it... and apparently this is when everyone decides to argue with me about what i like, and what i hear...I would love to learn more and more and more... and i have learned a lot from people in here, especially the ones who have decided to argue with me. that's pretty disheartening, and i don't understand why everyone has to make a big deal out of any statement that i reply??? this is me... telling of my personal experience... you can't tell me that that's not how i percieved my results, so it's pointless to keep trying.

respectfully,

Jacob
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What "mid-range hump" are you talking about?? Have you ever looked at the frequency graphs of either type?? The whole point of a good mic is to have it be as ruler flat as possible. Most of the time (almost all of the time) with cheaper mics they are still flat and start spiking upwards around 5khz. If there is any "hump" as you say, it tends to be in the higher frequencies which is why most inexpensive LDCs seem scooped and brittle.

If you can show me even ONE graph of an LDC with a midrange hump, you will have established credit in my book.

And you can't tune a mic to a pattern unless you are the designer or manufacturer. It's the design that makes it that way. A backplate with no vents to the rear makes a capsule omni-directional.

No one here wants to just argue with you. It's just that there is a need here to keep misinformation from being passed off as truth. Harvey lambasted me a year ago because I posted an erronious statement. He was right, I was wrong but I learned from it.

There are some very tech savvy people here who know the specs and behaviours of most of the mics out there. READ THE BIG THREAD!

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=27030

Start at the beginning.

I can't believe Harvey hasn't chimed in yet. This is also one of the reasons guys like Klaus Heyne or Oliver Archut don't hang out here. They'd probably pop a vein in frustration! Klaus won't let you post anything without backing it up!
 
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sorry, that was mis-stated. I by all means didn't mean a hump in frequency response! hehe that was just my way of describing what my ears hear... the toms being a bit louder and more defined in the mix than if i were to use SDC... this could also have a lot to do with the SDC's that i own and use... definitely not earthworks my friends!!! haha

Jacob
 
Jacobi1211 said:
sorry, that was mis-stated. I by all means didn't mean a hump in frequency response! hehe that was just my way of describing what my ears hear... the toms being a bit louder and more defined in the mix than if i were to use SDC... this could also have a lot to do with the SDC's that i own and use... definitely not earthworks my friends!!! haha

Jacob
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Then what you could be hearing is the lack of hyped high-end. The MXL 603's (like some others) output alot of the sibilance area of the spectrum. A good quality LCD that is fairly flat will not have that sizzly high-end and therefore will display the midrange with more presence. Oktava's 219 and 319 are known for this, which is why people describe them as "darker".
 
ah hah!!! that idea was staring me in the face, but i didn't really think about it until you say that... also, i'm a little confused. I see people using the word sibilance all the time, but i'm not sure i understand exactly what it means... care to enlighten me??? thanks,

Jacob
 
Jacobi1211 said:
ah hah!!! that idea was staring me in the face, but i didn't really think about it until you say that... also, i'm a little confused. I see people using the word sibilance all the time, but i'm not sure i understand exactly what it means... care to enlighten me??? thanks,

Jacob
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http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Sibilance.html

"The presence of strongly emphasized s, sh, ch, z, j sounds in speech called sibilants. These CONSONANTs are created by air moving through the vocal tract and being constricted by the position of the tongue and lips.

The SPECTRUM of sibilants is that of NARROW BAND NOISE in the high frequency range (5-10 kHz) and therefore their perception is the first to be affected by hearing loss with age (PRESBYCUSIS). Sibilants may be unvoiced (i.e. without pitch) or voiced (i.e. with an added vibration of the vocal cords)."
 
gcapel said:
I have been doing some test in the lab. Here are my results. I found that sdc are very much needed providing clean clear cymbol hits. I also found using one ldc for a room mic added a nice touch of mid for the entire kit.
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So you tried some mics out on a drum kit. Is this like Dexter's laboratory or something ?? :D :confused:

Did you wear a lab coat? Just messin' with ya, dude. I think it's great that you did some experimenting, and came to some ideas/conclusions based on those experiments. Keep it up.

.
 
PhilGood said:
I can't believe Harvey hasn't chimed in yet. This is also one of the reasons guys like Klaus Heyne or Oliver Archut don't hang out here. They'd probably pop a vein in frustration! Klaus won't let you post anything without backing it up!
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I'm trying to preserve what little remains of my sanity by NOT posting in the mic forum anymore, except where I can help with a specific problem. I'm really not interested in getting into arguments here about mic theory when the person I'm arguing with doesn't really understand mic theory.

Mics are what they are. Flat is good for accuracy; color is good for shaping sound. Sometimes color is needed, but matching the right color for a specific sound can be difficult.

Mics don't make bad recordings; people do. How? By making bad choices in selecting a mic for a particular application, or by poor mic placement. I've said it a million times here, "Mic placement is often more important than mic selection".

People here seem to spend a lot of time arguing mic selection. "This" or "that" sucks or rules. In actual fact, there are very few mics out there that won't work just fine for some applications. Most of the problems can usually be traced to "operator error".

In the pro world, we use a lot of expensive tools to make our job easier, but we do the same number of work-arounds as any home recordist. We hafta bang on a tool sometimes to make it fit the job. There's no substitute for good tools if you do this for a living, but some tools will do the job just fine at a lower cost.
 
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chessrock said:
So you tried some mics out on a drum kit. Is this like Dexter's laboratory or something ?? :D :confused:

Did you wear a lab coat? Just messin' with ya, dude. I think it's great that you did some experimenting, and came to some ideas/conclusions based on those experiments. Keep it up.

.
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Sorry no lab coat but that sounds appealing. Maybe I could get my wife to steal me one from the hospital. I live in a doublewide trailer(saving to buy a house with a studio in the basement). The labratory consist of a 10'x10' room with outdoor rugs hung on the walls. Very cheap I may add ($15 a 6'x8' rug x 6 rugs = $90 +tax from lowes). Oh... and it works like a glove.
 
gosh

I spend a lot of time playing with mics & placement & opt generally for 2 LDCs in the studio & 2 SDCs live

For a long time I was of the belief that YOU DID NOT USE SDC's on toms,snares etc untill I read recently the production breakdown of september gurls from big star, & he's (John Fry) using SDCs on guitar cabs & all

In a world with no fixed rules it is often easier to take the easiest route that involves less EQing I.E. using SDC's, but personally I like the completeness of the sound using 2 LDCs & some kick & snare mics to fill in the mids that were mentioned being lost earlier in the thread. The main brunt of the sound I do like to come from the OHs & the acoustics of the room
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Mics are what they are. Flat is good for accuracy; color is good for shaping sound. Sometimes color is needed, but matching the right color for a specific sound can be difficult.

Mics don't make bad recordings; people do. How? By making bad choices in selecting a mic for a particular application, or by poor mic placement. I've said it a million times here, "Mic placement is often more important than mic selection".

.
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couldn't agree more with your words on mic placement HG, a mic is a mic to a point & the difference in sound placed here or there is like night & day in some cases

having said that I would give my eye teeth & all 4 of my arms?? for a set of studio Earthworks drum mics :rolleyes:

L8r geesers
Slidey
 
gcapel said:
I've heard of people doing this from time to time. I just wonder is there anyone hear that uses this method? If so what is the difference than from using regualar small pencil condensers?
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I use LDCs all the time for my OHs as I personally like how they sound in my room on my kit... an AT4050 on the hats side and a NT1000 on the ride side. Are they matched? No. As for the difference, forget all the techy junk. The bottom line is what you read in the Big mic thread and the charateristics of each mic type. Then forget all you read in that thread and realize mics, rooms, and instruments are all different and no one recipe is always going to work.

Then the nextquestion is what are your goals in asking the question? Do you have the idea that you are going to dump every SDC for LDCs for overhead use? I think that is folly as depending on the situation you may need any of the options out there. I mean, I have done recordings with a single dynamic on a stand and then compressed the bajeezus out of it for a lofi effect. So it all depends. And honestly... I find a lot of folks aren't really interested in getting a good drum sound for the tune or band. They want to sound like drummer X on album Y. To that I say screw it. If that is all you want... go get a VKit and a sample library and leave the actual listening to the rest of us.
 
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