Using excessive gain to achieve 0 dB recording level...

J

Jroper14

New member
Hi folks,

This seems to be an issue I have quite a lot and im never sure what the answer is.

Microphone: SM81 & SE 2200a

Mixer: MACKIE Onyx

Software: LOGIC Express


So, when I record my acoustic guitar I find I have to take the gain on the mixer excessively high to achieve a 0dB recording level (at peak). Phantom power is on. The obvious problem here is that when I take it that high you start to easily attract unwanted background noise/static into the recording. Where is all the gain going?

Is the answer to record at a lower decibel and then just raise the levels within the software mixer and using software gain? If so, fine, but this just seems a little un-organic especially when I don't see why my hardware can't do the same job.

Any advice would be gratefully received! Thank you.

Jack
 
You don't want to be aiming for 0dB when tracking/recording. Aim for somewhere between -18dB -12dB and get a nice clear signal into your DAW. Volume comes later when mixing and then again in mastering.

If you want to hear things louder while tracking, turn your volume up in your headphones/monitors.
 
Mr Clean said:
You don't want to be aiming for 0dB when tracking/recording. Aim for somewhere between -18dB -12dB and get a nice clear signal into your DAW. Volume comes later when mixing and then again in mastering.

If you want to hear things louder while tracking, turn your volume up in your headphones/monitors.
Click to expand...

:thumbs up:

Thanks, I think I just needed someone to tell me that so I wasn't constantly trying to get a clean recording at 0dB. What you say makes sense.

Thank you
 
Jroper14 said:
:thumbs up:

Thanks, I think I just needed someone to tell me that so I wasn't constantly trying to get a clean recording at 0dB. What you say makes sense.

Thank you
Click to expand...

+1 to that.

You want your signal to be loud enough that noise from equipment or the environment is drowned out, but quiet enough that it doesn't get clipped or distorted at any point in the chain.

The quieter your gear and environment, the less important higher tracking levels become.
 
Well, let's clarify here --

Are you looking for 0dBVU or -0dBFS...?

We're *hoping* you're shooting for 0dBVU (which is going to have the meat of the signal in the -18 to -15dBFS range). But we're *assuming* you're shooting for -0dBFS.
 
I would be shooting for -18dBFS average levels, letting the peaks fall where they may. It's typical for AD converters to be calibrated so +4dBu at the input is -18dBFS in digital.

With most mixers 0dBVU on the meter correlates to +4dBu level at the output. So 0dBVU on the meter equals +4dBu at the output equals -18dBFS in the computer. Mackies are a special case (not positive about the Onyx series) in that +4dBVU equals +4dBu. Check your manual, it may be +4dBVU = +4dBu = -18dBFS.
 
Right, this is all just got a little bit more complex. I will have to get back to you on those questions and will have a read through the MACKIE manual.

So, should I be more concerned by the decibel level on the MACKIE or within LOGIC? Obviously I wouldn't allow either to clip, but recording at too lower decibel will just cause problems later on.

Cheers,

Jack
 
Would be great if someone could break down the definitions between dBFS and dBVU, too. Im struggling to get a grasp.

Sorry and thanks.

Jack
 
Jroper14 said:
Right, this is all just got a little bit more complex. I will have to get back to you on those questions and will have a read through the MACKIE manual.

So, should I be more concerned by the decibel level on the MACKIE or within LOGIC? Obviously I wouldn't allow either to clip, but recording at too lower decibel will just cause problems later on.

Cheers,

Jack
Click to expand...

It's not that complicated. Just set your gain so the level is "around" 0dB* on the analog meter and/or "around" -18dB in digital. A little too high or low won't make a ton of difference.

*I just looked it up. On the Onyx 1640 0dB on the meter equals 0dBu. If you make your average level +4 on the meter your levels should land right around -18dBFS.
 
Jroper14 said:
Just found this and it explains A LOT.

https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...bvu-dbfs-noise-you-correct-mixer-gain-204358/

I understand what you are all saying now. I presumed that I should have been aiming to hit 0dB within the digitial realm (dBFS), where I actually should be looking for that within my MACKIE mixer (dBVU) which should then convert to -18dBFS. Does that sound right?
Click to expand...

Right, except that with Mackies shoot for +4dB average levels on the meter rather than 0dB.
 
Jroper14 said:
.. The obvious problem here is that when I take it that high you start to easily attract unwanted background noise/static into the recording.
[..snip]
Is the answer to record at a lower decibel and then just raise the levels within the software mixer and using software gain? ...
Click to expand...

...You want your signal to be loud enough that noise from equipment or the environment is drowned out, but quiet enough that it doesn't get clipped or distorted at any point in the chain.

The quieter your gear and environment, the less important higher tracking levels become.
Click to expand...
There's another angle to sort through regarding gains, record levels, Steenamaroo touched on it but let's take it another step..
The level of our unwanted background noises are for the most part a constant set by the loudness of your source (your voice in this case) at the microphone vs the loudness of these other sounds.
I.e. this ratio of wanted vs unwanted sounds remains the same whether recorded lower or higher ('clipping issues aside for the moment), or making this same gain up anywhere else in the chain.
In other words, if you're noticing unwanted background noises at the track levels you end up using, the cure is get the source level up at the mic, and/or the noise levels down at the mic.
 
but recording at too lower decibel will just cause problems later on
Click to expand...
"Too low" is -- Let's put it this way -- You'd have to be WAAAAAAAAAYYYYY too low before you're going to have any problems. And I'd rather be WAAAAYYY too low than a touch too hot any day. You want problems later? Track too hot.
 
There are forces at work that make the noob think that he must record at a gnat's undercarriage below 0dBFS.

Just about every mortal thing he hears on the internet is slammed to peak level.

There are a few "good guys". I have just listened to a Chopin waltz on Radio 3 HD and even the last "muscular" chord only hit -10 dBFS on my 2496 card meters.
Now this bears thinking about! Suppose the piano was hitting -1dBFS and that was a Beethoven concerto? WTF do you "put" the rest of the orchestra?!!

Then, very few people experience truly live acoustic music any more. "We" don't go to church* much anymore and so don't hear a full choir and congregation plus organ. THAT is our "peak" level and yet the sermon is perfectly clear even tho' it would probably register neg 40- if we were recording the proceedings! of course many churches now use sound reinforcement for the service but this is often just to save the vicar's voice and they managed pretty well for a looooong time without!

So, remember noobs. It is the rest of the world that is "wrong" here! Keep levels down to neg 20 and if you have anything worth mastering, ever! John and his ilk will do the rest.

*NOT being "holier TT" here! Just Weddings and Funerals me! Been a Cathode Follower all my adult life but I can still enjoy the music and that pagan festival Christmas!

Dave.
 
Since we went digital, all that seems to have happened from a practical perspective is that meter scales have been stretched and we can now see little movements at the very bottom that are the system noise, and we can see at the top end a big sign saying never ever get this hot or you will die! The visual display of waveforms now has a handy stretch feature so you can expand the display to fill the lane. You need to know where your system works happily. I was tracking some drums yesterday and gains were set quickly by trial and error, on my own running from room to room. As in hit record, bang a few drums, go back and see which were too hot or not, adjust and do it again. Of course the first proper record I played quieter and levels were quite low, but still noise free and clean. So much dynamic range available that I rarely worry any more. My ears decide.

There is also the issue of mixing lots of really hit tracks the levels sent to the bus are often just too much, and you have to drop groups or masters right down.
 
rob aylestone said:
Since we went digital, all that seems to have happened from a practical perspective is that meter scales have been stretched and we can now see little movements at the very bottom that are the system noise, and we can see at the top end a big sign saying never ever get this hot or you will die! The visual display of waveforms now has a handy stretch feature so you can expand the display to fill the lane. You need to know where your system works happily. I was tracking some drums yesterday and gains were set quickly by trial and error, on my own running from room to room. As in hit record, bang a few drums, go back and see which were too hot or not, adjust and do it again. Of course the first proper record I played quieter and levels were quite low, but still noise free and clean. So much dynamic range available that I rarely worry any more. My ears decide.

There is also the issue of mixing lots of really hit tracks the levels sent to the bus are often just too much, and you have to drop groups or masters right down.
Click to expand...

Hey Rob! Do you want my Tranzport? Save all that running about!

Dave.
 
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