Using a microphone with a drummer

[Tomm Williams]

We are rehearsing where all the instruments are leveled to be at the right volume with un-miked drums, as that is the lowest volume we can set everything, cause the drummer can't play any quieter. We plug the mic into a bass effects pedal for reverb, from the pedal to an aux port on the microphone mixing board, then from the mixing board to the pa speaker. He does know how to project his voice. I actually don't know whether the pedal or the mixing board has a gate anyway, but we use a limiter, but the pa is still clipping (my band doesn't care that it clips as they think it is subtle, but I can't stand it personally) The drums are just acoustic, the bass guitar/ bass keyboard (as when I play keyboards, I use left hand bass for the bass part) are plugged into a 200 watt leslie speaker. The regular keyboards are plugged into a music man, the guitar is plugged into a regular 35 watt amplifier, and the guitarist also has a mic (which is turned off most of the time) for singing which is plugged into the mixer as well. I'm also afraid that the clipping is going to damage the speaker, but I'm not sure if clipping will do that to as speaker or not.

Try this-----------Take the mic out of the pedal and run it direct to an XLR in on your board. FX can be a pain in small rehearsal spaces as some types (reverb being one) use compression as an element of the effect. Compression is a huge PITA for feedback issues and quite frankly, FX in vocals has no place in a rehearsal setting (IMO anyway) It's also entirely possible that you're overdriving the pedal itself thus the clipping. Time to educate the band that they do need to care about clipping because it's your sound systems way of screaming: "You idiots are destroying me"

You are correct in playing to the volume of the drums. For the most part, there's not much you can do to change that. (wanna buy some E-drums?) Next look at your gain structure, how do you set each individual gain trim from the channel strip to the pedal to the powered speaker. Don't try to achieve too much gain at any one point, it's a balance. Next, is it possible your mic is the problem? the OM5 is a fine mic but is your faulty?------------it does happen. Test your system without the band playing and without the bass pedal. Determine what the max GBF is that you can achieve. You cannot rule out (at this point) that you simply do not have enough rig for what you're attempting to do. However, I don't think that's the case.

 

[ZJE123]

Try this-----------Take the mic out of the pedal and run it direct to an XLR in on your board. FX can be a pain in small rehearsal spaces as some types (reverb being one) use compression as an element of the effect. Compression is a huge PITA for feedback issues and quite frankly, FX in vocals has no place in a rehearsal setting (IMO anyway) It's also entirely possible that you're overdriving the pedal itself thus the clipping. Time to educate the band that they do need to care about clipping because it's your sound systems way of screaming: "You idiots are destroying me"

You are correct in playing to the volume of the drums. For the most part, there's not much you can do to change that. (wanna buy some E-drums?) Next look at your gain structure, how do you set each individual gain trim from the channel strip to the pedal to the powered speaker. Don't try to achieve too much gain at any one point, it's a balance. Next, is it possible your mic is the problem? the OM5 is a fine mic but is your faulty?------------it does happen. Test your system without the band playing and without the bass pedal. Determine what the max GBF is that you can achieve. You cannot rule out (at this point) that you simply do not have enough rig for what you're attempting to do. However, I don't think that's the case.

Yea, I will check out the mic itself and see. My band friends are very stubborn, he doesn't want to sing without reverb period, and they even thought the clipping was "preventing" damage to the speaker, but I knew full well that it was. They said clipping was better than not being able to hear him, which is half correct, but I would imagine that the speaker might one day break because of it. I can't be overiding the pedal that I know of, the gain on the pedal it at 48, out of 100 so... unless I am overlooking something. We have tried not using the pedal and still had problems. I do notice that the snare drum is what comes through the most and I see the clip light go on every time he is singing and playing the snare. How do I figure out the max GBF and how would I know based on that if the mic was faulty? Oh, and no e-drums, he refuses and I don't necessarily blame him. I've also noticed that, even though the speaker says it's clipping, the mixing board doesn't. We've used and not used the e q on the speaker and either way, it's still not lout enough. Just today we just put the vocals into 3 separate amps and finally got it at just enough volume to be loud enough. But I am unsure if it still clips, I'll have to check, but, even though they aren't concerned so much about this, I don;t want to damage expensive (relative to our pockets speakers because we ignored clipping. Is there some way we can put a hard limittier on it so when the signal goes just below peak, the limiter will prevent it from going any higher?

 

[Tomm Williams]

Yea, I will check out the mic itself and see. My band friends are very stubborn, he doesn't want to sing without reverb period, and they even thought the clipping was "preventing" damage to the speaker, but I knew full well that it was. They said clipping was better than not being able to hear him, which is half correct, but I would imagine that the speaker might one day break because of it. I can't be overiding the pedal that I know of, the gain on the pedal it at 48, out of 100 so... unless I am overlooking something. We have tried not using the pedal and still had problems. I do notice that the snare drum is what comes through the most and I see the clip light go on every time he is singing and playing the snare. How do I figure out the max GBF and how would I know based on that if the mic was faulty? Oh, and no e-drums, he refuses and I don't necessarily blame him. I've also noticed that, even though the speaker says it's clipping, the mixing board doesn't. We've used and not used the e q on the speaker and either way, it's still not lout enough. Just today we just put the vocals into 3 separate amps and finally got it at just enough volume to be loud enough. But I am unsure if it still clips, I'll have to check, but, even though they aren't concerned so much about this, I don;t want to damage expensive (relative to our pockets speakers because we ignored clipping. Is there some way we can put a hard limittier on it so when the signal goes just below peak, the limiter will prevent it from going any higher?

Wow----------lots of issues here and it would be nice to see some other opinions jump in too.

1--Your band mates need to educate themselves on at least the basics of SR or all of you better get high paying jobs to replace all the gear that will be ruined.
2--Looks like you identified at least one issue............the snare drum. Change the position of the mic to better use the rejection pattern. Get the mic as close as possible to your drummers mouth.
3--Your max GBF is achieved by proper gain structure. As this is a bit lengthy of a subject for a post reply, I suggest you Google it. With your limited set-up, there may not be a lot of adjustments you can make. Dave Rat has a good video on the subject on You-Tube.
4--Obtain a different mic to test against your Audix. I doubt the OM5 is the problem but when trouble-shooting check everything that could be involved
5--You're seeing the clip light on the speaker because the internal amp is clipping. The channel strip light would come on if you were clipping the pre-amps in the console. Try backing off the speaker amp gain and getting a bit more gain from the channel strip. This again references back to gain structure.
6--Your EQ's are not meant for an over-all system gain like a volume knob. They are for adjustment of specific frequencies for specific reasons like feedback, bass traps, high/low frequency issues, etc...
7--What do you mean about putting the vocals into 3 seperate amps? Do you have additional amps or ??
8--Did the clip lights on said amps come on while you were testing them? if not-----------no clipping
9--I think you should avoid the limiter and learn how to use your gear properly. It's never a good idea to plug more crap into a system that isn't being used to it's potential to start with. If you are not using a basic system correctly (and you're not) DO NOT start adding processing units to the recipe.
10--I cannot stress enough about your bandmates needing to get on board with learning how this stuff works and being cooperative. It is your biggest problem at this point (IMO)

 

[jimmys69]

Wow----------lots of issues here and it would be nice to see some other opinions jump in too.

1--Your band mates need to educate themselves on at least the basics of SR or all of you better get high paying jobs to replace all the gear that will be ruined.
2--Looks like you identified at least one issue............the snare drum. Change the position of the mic to better use the rejection pattern. Get the mic as close as possible to your drummers mouth.
3--Your max GBF is achieved by proper gain structure. As this is a bit lengthy of a subject for a post reply, I suggest you Google it. With your limited set-up, there may not be a lot of adjustments you can make. Dave Rat has a good video on the subject on You-Tube.
4--Obtain a different mic to test against your Audix. I doubt the OM5 is the problem but when trouble-shooting check everything that could be involved
5--You're seeing the clip light on the speaker because the internal amp is clipping. The channel strip light would come on if you were clipping the pre-amps in the console. Try backing off the speaker amp gain and getting a bit more gain from the channel strip. This again references back to gain structure.
6--Your EQ's are not meant for an over-all system gain like a volume knob. They are for adjustment of specific frequencies for specific reasons like feedback, bass traps, high/low frequency issues, etc...
7--What do you mean about putting the vocals into 3 seperate amps? Do you have additional amps or ??
8--Did the clip lights on said amps come on while you were testing them? if not-----------no clipping
9--I think you should avoid the limiter and learn how to use your gear properly. It's never a good idea to plug more crap into a system that isn't being used to it's potential to start with. If you are not using a basic system correctly (and you're not) DO NOT start adding processing units to the recipe.
10--I cannot stress enough about your bandmates needing to get on board with learning how this stuff works and being cooperative. It is your biggest problem at this point (IMO)

I like ^^this^^ guy!

Good questions/answers/advice. Take it ZJE123

Must spread rep blah blah blah. Rep to Tomm Williams.

 

[Tomm Williams]

Finally found the instructions for your mixer and speaker. Try this: Turn the EQ on the speaker to "off",
engage the HPF on the TOA and make sure the LPF is disengaged. Turn the channel trim knobs (on the channels you're using) to around 2 O'clock. Turn the volume on the speaker up until you hit clip and then back off about 10%, bring up the Master volume to Unity gain (or zero, not sure how it's marked) and adjust the EQ on the TOA to provide a slight bass cut. Elevate the speaker as high as you can and keep it as far from your drummer as possible. Try these things and get back to us.

 

[ZJE123]

Wow----------lots of issues here and it would be nice to see some other opinions jump in too.

1--Your band mates need to educate themselves on at least the basics of SR or all of you better get high paying jobs to replace all the gear that will be ruined.
2--Looks like you identified at least one issue............the snare drum. Change the position of the mic to better use the rejection pattern. Get the mic as close as possible to your drummers mouth.
3--Your max GBF is achieved by proper gain structure. As this is a bit lengthy of a subject for a post reply, I suggest you Google it. With your limited set-up, there may not be a lot of adjustments you can make. Dave Rat has a good video on the subject on You-Tube.
4--Obtain a different mic to test against your Audix. I doubt the OM5 is the problem but when trouble-shooting check everything that could be involved
5--You're seeing the clip light on the speaker because the internal amp is clipping. The channel strip light would come on if you were clipping the pre-amps in the console. Try backing off the speaker amp gain and getting a bit more gain from the channel strip. This again references back to gain structure.
6--Your EQ's are not meant for an over-all system gain like a volume knob. They are for adjustment of specific frequencies for specific reasons like feedback, bass traps, high/low frequency issues, etc...
7--What do you mean about putting the vocals into 3 seperate amps? Do you have additional amps or ??
8--Did the clip lights on said amps come on while you were testing them? if not-----------no clipping
9--I think you should avoid the limiter and learn how to use your gear properly. It's never a good idea to plug more crap into a system that isn't being used to it's potential to start with. If you are not using a basic system correctly (and you're not) DO NOT start adding processing units to the recipe.
10--I cannot stress enough about your bandmates needing to get on board with learning how this stuff works and being cooperative. It is your biggest problem at this point (IMO)

What I meant was, some how, they got the microphone plugged into a pa speaker, a 1970s tube guitar amp, and a monitor via a mixer all at the same time, and the volume was much louder than with just the p.a. I adjusted the levels on all 5 speakers/mixer/pedal and was able to get none of the speakers clipping, but still plenty of volume. We tested the mic with another one and there seems to be no issue, except haven't tested the GBF yet. As far as the equipment goes, they are the ones that either acquired them, or bought them so if they get damaged, though it may sound harsh, it's not my problem. Being the keyboard/bass player, I always made sure there was no clipping, granted the leslie I'm using is much louder and without drum feedback. Though running the vocals through a guitar tube amp doesn't yield the best quality, the vocals are heard and understood, so it's good enough until I, or we, learn how to set it up properly. With no clipping, I don't believe there could be any further damage, unless I am missing something. Also, I had pointed the mic more upward to face more away from the snare drum, so that helped a lot.

 

[Tomm Williams]

A very unconventional set up however I guess the question is---------------at least for rehearsal purposes, are you content with the set-up you've come up with? With the vocals coming from so many speakers, feedback might become a greater issue if the speakers are pointed all around the room. In regards to the potential for equipment damage, even though that might not matter to you at this point, once your investment becomes substantial the damage gets more painful.

 

[danbortz]

I read all the ideas and they were all fantastic but my quick fix would be to turn off the drummers mic then record him later in a separate track if you have the capability. I understand your dilemma in a live application but it sounds as if this is a recording application in your basement. Am I wrong?

 

[ZJE123]

A very unconventional set up however I guess the question is---------------at least for rehearsal purposes, are you content with the set-up you've come up with? With the vocals coming from so many speakers, feedback might become a greater issue if the speakers are pointed all around the room. In regards to the potential for equipment damage, even though that might not matter to you at this point, once your investment becomes substantial the damage gets more painful.

We have all of the speakers facing away from the drums entirely, and so far, not feedback, you know, after setting levels. For now, this works, provided the tubes don't explode It's absolutely unconventional, I agree with you 100%. However, this is a lot better than it used to be four months ago, when all I had was a 10 watt practice bass amp, and no keyboards, or leslie at all, my drummer had no mic or amplifier of any kind, but my guitarist's setup hasn't changed. It seems to be much cheaper being a guitar player, considering good guitars and loud guitar amps are a lot cheaper than good basses/bass amps, or keyboard/leslies and such. Luckily most of the equipment was donated by my guitarist's father, who used to use the leslie and music man a lot in the 70s and had no uses for much of the other equipment he had.

I read all the ideas and they were all fantastic but my quick fix would be to turn off the drummers mic then record him later in a separate track if you have the capability. I understand your dilemma in a live application but it sounds as if this is a recording application in your basement. Am I wrong?

When we do record, yes that's the way we do it, but when we rehearse, we need to practice it exactly how we would be playing it live.

 

[jimmys69]

There is always the option of using headphones from a mixer. Used to do that in a previous band. Just ran what was needed to be heard over the room, to an effects send via the mixer. Used a $40 Behri headphone amp to run the headphone mix. Also ran a click track through it.