Used violin question

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RideTheCrash

RideTheCrash

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My fiancee is a very musical person and can play a number of instruments and she's been wanting to learn how to play violin for a long time now. We have this buy and sell store by our house which carries a bunch of junky guitar copies and some other used stuff. They have this decent looking violin for $150 (I think) (w/ no bow) and I was in there today and they have another one which looks a bit older, but okay. The strings looked loose at the bridge and the tuning pegs seemed kind of tight, but the bridge was loose so I assume so the strings weren't tensioned.

That violin is only 50 bucks and comes with no bow like the other one. I know absolutely nothing about violins, but I was wondering if you guys had any input cause we might go check it out later. I should probably look at the more expensive one, but money is tight...especially at this time of year. Anything I should check for if we look at the violin later?
 
violin ??

check out musicians friend.... my wife got one of there inexpensive violin's i was suprised how nice it was... came w/ a case,a bow,rosin, ....... the rosin was a little hard had to rough up the surface of the rosin to get it to work...
 
Dave's right

I play violin, and unless you've got someone with you that knows what they're doing, you might benefit form just ordering new from Musician's Friend.
 
violin

i think she paid less than $100 for everything..... the violin, the case, the bow, rosin, and a video on how to play....... it was a realy great deal
 
I don't work on violins as a rule, but there are a few essential things you may want to consider.

The violin of all the stringed instruments is a finely balanced beast and needs to be "just so" in order to get the best out of it. I would definitrely get someone who knows the violin to give it the once over before you part with any cash. If thats not possible here are some things to check. The violin you describe is almost certainly an Chinese student model or possibly an older German factory instrument depending on the condition. Neither are very good instruments but if setup right are fine for a beginner. You might get lucky and bag a better instrument, you never know, but ignore ANY label you can see inside unless you have someone to hand that knows what they are looking at!!

The violin has a soundpost under the bridge that is a snug fit between the front and the back. In simple terms a wooden dowel that is wedged in place. I f the strings are loose or the instrument has been left unattended for any length of time this can fall out of place. You can tell if its there by rattling the violin. You'll hear it. If its in place you'll be able to see it through the treble side F hole. If its missing alltogether you'll need to get one fitted.

If the soundpost has been badly fitted or adjusted it can often leave tell tale signs that form cracks along the top along the grain that lines up with the bridge feet. Be very wary of any cracks in the top especially any that look like they are caused by the soundpost. The other bridge foot has a bass bar under it which is glued in place so is much harder to check. Both are essential to the stability of the violin.

On the pegs, if they are stiff check they havent left any small cracks or splits on the pegbox. Violin pegs are a friction fit and if not used for a while they can split the pegbox as the humidity changes and the timber shrinks. Equally they should turn smoothly and push in tight in order to hold tune. If they don't you'l need to get those looked at as well. Hard to tell without peg paste to hand.

While the soundpost and pegbox are the two most common problems on neglected fiddles. Its wise to check the whole thing for splits and make sure the top and back are still glued to the sides.

The bridge should sit right on the line btween the "nicks" on the F holes. You will most likey be able to see marks on the top if it has been set elsewhere. If so it could indicate a problem with the neck set and further problems done the road.

As I said I don't work much on violins and the violin world is anal about detail so maybe find someone who can give it the once over for you. Its real hard without seeing it tell how much you'll need to spend to get it setup. Like I said you maybe lucky and have found a winner. I hope so and let us know how you get on.
 
Hmmm. I saw no visible cracks or problems, but who knows. I know violins are something that needs to be taken well care of and at this point I'm thinking of just staying away. 50 bucks isn't much, but if it has issues...well I got enough stuff to get fixed! Anyway, the violin had a brand name, it started with C and looked Italian, like "Cor___telli" or something like that. If we end up checking this thing out again, I'll check for anything hairline cracks.

As for MF, they don't ship to Canada. There are some local music shops that have low end looking violins for $200 bucks or so maybe. Not really willing to order at this point though. I also don't really know anyone who plays violin -- well that I could just grab and have tag along anyway. Thanks guys, I'll let you know if we go back.
 
Fiddle/violin is my primary instrument and I've been playing and collecting them for 23 years now and have over 50.

Really, if your wife is just learning, just about any violin that is structurally sound will do just fine...an authentic Stradivari won't sound like much in inexperienced hands. Like some of the guys have said here, be sure that it doesn't have any soundpost cracks. One more thing is to make sure the neck has the proper set. A neck set too shallow will require that the bridge be carved very short and this will greatly hinder sound and playability (string response) of the fiddle. Another point for beginners is strings. There are violin strings out there that cost $100 per set and more. For now, while learning, just be sure you have a flat wound set...meaning that those ultra cheap Black Diamond round wound strings for fiddle aren't even good enough for beginners...and in my opinion should be against the law to sell them! :D

Be sure that when you do get a bow, that you get one with plenty of spring in the stick. Meaning the stick is not straight, it will still have bow to it. I'd also go with real horse hair as opposed to synthetic types. I've tried a lot of synthetics and none of them will hold rosin very well and will only add to the difficulty trying to learn to play. A very good beginner bow would be a composite bow, Glaser with real hair. You can get the bow with synthetic or real.

If you need any help along the way with your fiddle, feel free to give me a shout and I'll help if I can.

Thanks in advance,
 
Great advice. I have thought about buying a junky one. It may be like the rule "You can't afford a free piano" since they can be pretty screwed up.

I have one question. Is neck straightness (bow) as big an issue with a fretless neck? Maybe it matters less because the neck is a foot long. I dunno. I just wondered if it was bowed or something, it'd be hard to correct since there is no trussrod adjustment or frets to level. Do they just sand it to the right relief again?
 
cephus said:
Great advice. I have thought about buying a junky one. It may be like the rule "You can't afford a free piano" since they can be pretty screwed up.

I have one question. Is neck straightness (bow) as big an issue with a fretless neck? Maybe it matters less because the neck is a foot long. I dunno. I just wondered if it was bowed or something, it'd be hard to correct since there is no trussrod adjustment or frets to level. Do they just sand it to the right relief again?
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The violin fingerboard has a single radius across its width and should be dead straight along its length. Unlike the guitar the fiddle has less tension on the neck so once its straight you don't need extra support to hold it there as a truss rod does. You can skim a fiddle neck to get it straight in extreme cases you shim under the fingerboard to raise the neck set. If that dont work you need to take the neck of and reset it

Like Zetajazz says the most important thing with a fiddle neck is the set or break angle. It dicatates the bridge hight and action. Both are important in a good setup. Allowing the bow to hit all strings and allowing the strings to vibrate, at the same time you don't want the action too high. If the neck set is wrong to start with its quite a big job to put it right.
 
I bought my wife a chinese piece of crap (200.00) They don't sound that great and the tuners suckola.

I later bought her a german 700.00 peice which was a good investment. It sounds great and well crafted.
 
Okay, so we popped back in tonight and looked it over. I saw no obvious hairline cracks, but one that could be one. There was some weird stuff near the base of the neck joint which might have been a fix of something, but I really don't know. I looked inside and it's a "Cortelli" and it's made in Canada. My fiancee noticed it was missing a soundpost, so pssh. The bridge piece was also not on, she found it sitting in the case.

Now, the other one is $129, and new. I think it comes with a case and bow and all that, but the quality is probably pretty shit. So no violins for now, but thanks for the help guys.
 
You might want to pm DavidK. He knows a thing or two about the fiddle.
 
No bow = spend plenty of dough to get one.
You can buy cheap & nasty violins online now for as little as $80. You get what you pay for BUT if it's just to find out whether ot not it's the way to go it's cheaper than renting.
 
rayc said:
No bow = spend plenty of dough to get one.
You can buy cheap & nasty violins online now for as little as $80. You get what you pay for BUT if it's just to find out whether ot not it's the way to go it's cheaper than renting.
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Yes. The world has become saturated with "cheap & nasty violins that you can buy online". There are Chinese manufacturers that build these on assembly lines and ship them all over the world, UNBRANDED. The seller then applies his "sticker" on the inside. Most of the "cheap/new" fiddle outfits on eBay are all made in this same factory and receive the same treatment...and are in the same class: junk. Most of these fiddles don't have carved tops. In the listings/ads they say they do, but what they actually have are "molded" tops. A flat, thin piece of wide grained spruce, with a bit of steam and a molding press, and BAM!, you have a fiddle top. This is complete junk and after a few years of owning one, you'll find out why...the tops, and even sometimes the backs, will start flattening out, returning to their original shape, and sometimes even cave in, but in most cases will always end up with cracks.

Now after bashing these "Chinese Fiddles", I must go on to say that you can get very, very high quality Chinese made violins. There are some decent fiddles that SAGA distributes with retail price from about $700 going up to about $1200, that are 'decent'. Although I'm not sure of the distributor, there is also another, higher class, of Chinese fiddles that are being distributed as well. This class makes these SAGA instruments look like the "cheap & nasty violins online", that I spoke about earlier, in comparison. I own 1 of these. I purchased it through a German "Master" violin maker that does all of my setups, re-hairs and repairs...and paid accordingly for it. After playing and owning many fiddles over the years, when you've actually got one in your hands, you'll feel the quality...you'll know you're holding something of much higher quality. Some of these violins will extend into the $5K-$6K price range. I know several good violinists as well as a few studio musicians that play these.

After WWII, there were a lot of assembly line fiddles made in Europe. There were many that made copies of the Stradivari, Maggini and Stainer. You see tons of these on eBay. Although they are of slightly higher quality than the "cheap & nasty violins online", Chinese variety, they are still assembly line fiddles. Most people have the conception that because it was made in Germany, in/around the 1940's, and has a maple back with lots of flame, it's a great violin, but this is not exactly true. They all end up being sold in basically the same class/price range of about $250.00 - $300.00...and are all about the same quality, sound and workmanship, regardless of the style that was copied.

Bows... Well, there might be some new, good wooden bows out there, but I've not found one. Before you run off and spend a few thousand dollars on a good wood bow, you'd be better served to a few hundred on an 'upper end' carbon fiber bow. I personally play the "P&H" brand made in London. I have a few high-end handmade bows that are appraised at a few thousand dollars each, but this P&H beats all them in actual playing. I also mentioned earlier about the Glaser composite bows. These are not bad...and are sure to be better than just about any cheap, new wooden bow you can pick up off eBay, and/or find in the case when you buy a violin package.

Really, in the world of old, used violins, if I'm buying, the main 2 features I look for are a well set neck and good arching of the top and back. I like a high-arched top, but the arching must be smooth and even from end to end. There are a lot of Stainer copies out there with very high arching, but this is just not the "right type" of arching. But more importantly is a good neck angle. One poster mentioned putting wedge shapped shims under the fingerboard to bring the angle up... Yes, there are some people out there who do this..to my amazement! In the end, the fingerboard angle becomes correct, but the neck also grows thicker... The correct way to fix a neck set is to remove the neck and reset it. If the violin wasn't worth having repaired correctly, this way as opposed to actually removing the neck and doing it right, it's really not worth owning. As a rule, if I see a wedge shim under a fingerboard, I RUN...and fast!

While I'm rambling on, I'll touch a bit on the electric variety of violins being sold today. Over the years, I've owned and played many different configurations and brands. Basically, they're all the same, a plank of wood, cut to a particular shape, with a piezo type pickup. They all basically sound and play the same. The only electrics I've ever found to be highly superior are Zeta brand. Now, granted, Zeta has started making a new, cheaper line that is the same configuration as those I spoke about earlier, and the price reflects that. I own 2 Zetas. I have the standard Jazz and Strados models that I bought new about 10 years ago. Even after all the electrics I've played and owned before then, and since then, I've not played on with the sound quality and playability of the Zetas...but their price also reflects that...

Ok.. I've rambled on enough. If you have any specific questions, I'll be glad to answer any that you have.

Thanks,
 
I was looking for a fiddle for my kids on Ebay a while back... They have (what I thought was) a very nice buyer's guide on Ebay. You might want to read through that - it talked about the various woods used and how to look for particular grain patterns, et.c along with everything mentioned in the previous posts.

But for something to fart around on, a cheap one might be ok for a student. The thing I noticed about fretless instruments is that it's all technique and position - There's really no ultra fine tunning/setup like you can do on a guitar. Each string will have different "fret" positions, so you cant put a straight line (like a barre chord) across the strings and expect them to be in tune.
 
Zetajazz44, thanks for that summary and rep point to you.

If you had $1000 to spend, what violin would you buy?
 
Middleman said:
Zetajazz44, thanks for that summary and rep point to you.

If you had $1000 to spend, what violin would you buy?
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For $1000, I'd try to find "one of the old" John Juzek violins that were made in Prague, before they moved to Germany during/after WWII. Sometimes you can pick these up in the $500-$600 range, and these earlier ones were hand built. Use the rest of the $1000 to have it professionally set up.

All of this is my opinion...

Thanks,
 
Zetajazz44 said:
Be sure that when you do get a bow, that you get one with plenty of spring in the stick. Meaning the stick is not straight, it will still have bow to it. I'd also go with real horse hair as opposed to synthetic types. I've tried a lot of synthetics and none of them will hold rosin very well and will only add to the difficulty trying to learn to play. A very good beginner bow would be a composite bow, Glaser with real hair. You can get the bow with synthetic or real.
Click to expand...

So that's why my cello bow doesn't hold rosin worth a damn. I always assumed they all behaved that way. Good to know.

I know what I'm getting myself for Christmas.... A bow that doesn't blow.
 
dgatwood said:
So that's why my cello bow doesn't hold rosin worth a damn. I always assumed they all behaved that way. Good to know.

I know what I'm getting myself for Christmas.... A bow that doesn't blow.
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You could always just get the bow rehaired. A lot cheaper if you playing dosent demand a perfectly balance bow. There are also different roins to try. Just a thought before you blow cash on a new bow.
 
Also check around for used bows. Most places that rent out orchestral instruments have plenty laying around, and if they're a decent store they will have been taken care or. If you're looking for string instruments on the cheap, I'm digging the Mertes and Eastman products. Good choice in woods, decent pegs, nice bridges that won't warp after a month, and plenty of options from beginner to professional instruments. They're usually set up well out of the box when we receive them, a couple of bridge adjustments and they're good to go. You can't get one for $100, but if she gets into it and wants an upgrade on the cheap, they're very nice.
 
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