USB Interface, Digital Recorder-- I'm one lost dude.

M

MisterP

New member
Oh how easy I thought it was gonna be as soon as I picked up a low budget's worth of recording gear/software and hauled it all home. All I'm doing is vocal work over instrumentals and mixing/mastering on easy-to-learn software, how difficult could it be?!

It's been about a year of messing around with this junk and I still can't find too much to be satisfied with. If the instrumental is light enough, I can get my mix to sound decent, but anything louder than a mellow jazz loop is gonna mesh with my vocals like peanut butter does relish. I've tried a bunch of different computers, many fast ones, and still, the same lackluster results.. I've been far too broke to make any equipment updates so I just kept monkeying with the same stuff.

That stuff would be:

Apex 415
Art Tube MP Pre-Amp
M-Audio Fast Track Pro USB
Adobe Audition 3


I know, some of you are rolling your eyes and thinking "WHAT DID YOU EXPECT?!", haha.. The thing is, I never aspired for commercial quality, just, a good enough sound. It's a hobby.

I recently talked with someone who I've worked with in the past, and his vocals were always pretty clean sounding and easy to mix with, and I asked finally what he was using.. Turns out, his mic is even lesser in quality than mine, and he uses no real pre-amp.. he merely uses a Digital Recorder, sends the vocals to his computer, and amps them using Audacity. He told me that he once used a USB Interface like mine but didn't really like the way it sounded. On top of that, I read into the recorder he uses (Focusrite Trakmaster Pro), and noticed a lot of BAD reviews about it! So if a hook-up that many consider to sound horrid sounds good to my ears, I assume my standards aren't beyond my reach, and I should be able to acheive the same quality with my budget..

This intrigued me to look into digital recorders, and I see that the music store nearby is renting out the Tascam D-02 for 45 dollars a month, which I can actually afford. My question is, will I really notice a difference in quality if I go ahead and rent this thing? What do you prefer, USB Interface or Digital Recorder?

Yeah, I lack insight on this stuff. It's a hobby. :p Any sort of insight would be greatly appreciated.
 
And a quick additional question.. I noticed the Tascam records in 16-bit, which rings an alarm in my head, as I've been told for a long time the importance of 24-bit recording.. is it a different world with Digital Recorders, where 16-bit isn't as bad (because this D-02 seems to be an appreciated peice of equipment from what I've read).. I can simply zip the vocals from it into my Adobe where I'd mix everything using the 24-bit sound quality my Fast Track Pro can provide.. Blah, my compass is spinning..
 
MisterP said:
And a quick additional question.. I noticed the Tascam records in 16-bit, which rings an alarm in my head, as I've been told for a long time the importance of 24-bit recording.. is it a different world with Digital Recorders, where 16-bit isn't as bad (because this D-02 seems to be an appreciated peice of equipment from what I've read).. I can simply zip the vocals from it into my Adobe where I'd mix everything using the 24-bit sound quality my Fast Track Pro can provide.. Blah, my compass is spinning..
Click to expand...

I haven't used any of the particular equipment you have but I don't think the Tascam will constitute a major step up. There is nothing wrong with it but it is about the same level of equipment as you already have.

A couple of thoughts come to mind. The Art is a tube preamp and may be adding more "warmth" to your voice than you like. Have you ever just tried just running the mic straight into the Fast track? Might be what you are looking for.

Also, I'm not a vocalist so I may be off base, but you might try positioning yourself differently at the mic. That mic has three different pickup patterns, have you tried them all?
 
Oh, you better believe it.. Like I said, I've been monkeying around with this stuff for a year or so, and I've tried everything from straight into the Fast Track to trying the Fast Track on a USB 2.0 port to just the preamp straight into the comp line.. I've tried every pattern, every combination of gain, blah blah blah..

As for mic placement and all that, I've tried all of it as well. From putting a blanket up behind me, to tilting the mic, to distancing myself, I've toyed around with that for a very long and frustrating period of time.

And by the way, the acapellas sound alright, and I have no problem with the way I sound, it's just a matter of how poorly my vocals seem to mix with these instrumentals in comparison to my friend's who seems to be working with a similar or even smaller budget. I seem to be able to turn his vocals up to a high enough volume for his lyrics to be made audible and it still sounds pleasant, while mine seem to distort/get muddy.

I'm thinking/desperately hoping overall there might not be a HUGE difference between what I've got and what I'll have if I make this rental, but it'll be a difference nonetheless and perhaps give me cleaner material to work with..

Thanks for the input Erich
 
Step 1: Stop using that ART tube mp. The only thing it's adding to your signal is noise.
Step 2: Take some time to read up on:
a) Gain Staging - Essentially, learning how to set your levels so you get absolutely the best, most noise free, undistorted sound out of whatever equipment you have. A resource for you: http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/
When that page loads, click on the icon for the "Metering and Gain Structure" link. Read and absorb.
b) The proper use of compression (IRN again, this time "Compression Uncompressed") and eq (the interactive frequency chart on IRN can help, but there are literally thousands of different places online to learn about what exactly equalization does and how [and how not] to use it). I dunno, google "vocal eq" or something like that, see what pops up. Avoid like the plague any links that say "set frequency X to +2dB, frequency Y to -4dB, etc..." as they will not help you like a site where someone explains the concepts behind the different ways of using eq.
c) Vocal technique - More important when you're singing emotionally than when you're doing intentionally unemotional voiceover work, but everything from the mic's distance and angle from your mouth to how you move your head/body and how you pronounce different sounds can have an effect on the consistency of the final product.
Step 3: Practice what you've learned. That's self-explanatory, right?

So, in three easy steps you've improved the hell out of your recordings, and you haven't had to spend a dime.

Sweet deal, right?



P.S. - If you're still not satisfied with the quality of your recordings, either your standards have improved too dramatically for your equipment to keep up with, or you're just an incurably terrible performer. :D
 
Ok, you posted while I was typing.

So, the compression and eq are the ones you want to focus on. That's how you make vox sit with instruments. Also delay and reverb for making them sound like they're in a real space if they're recorded really dry.

But seriously. Don't waste your money on even renting that DP-02. The only difference between that thing and your current setup will be workflow.
If you really think that's the problem, give the thing a try. It might work for you.

But I don't see it doing what you want it to do without you ultimately understanding why it does.
It ain't gonna be magic.
 
Wow, huge thanks for that link.. It's got a lot of insight on the pre-amp that I've been looking for for a long time. I've basically been using mine "by ear", and just twisting and turning the knobs til it sounds decent with not much more than a broad understanding as to how it all works.. I do have MUCH to learn about compression and EQ, as they're very tricky concepts, I normally just select a preset and tweak til I optimize to the best of my ability.. I have friends who work in studios who could master for me but with all the material I've got lined up there's no way I wouldn't eventually become a pain in their asses, haha, so I've been trying to learn on my own.

I had a strong feeling that the ART Tube was a peice of duke.. think the 40$ price tag tipped me off? But I figured it served SOME purpose.. Being that I am willing to spend a dime, I'd be better off instead renting a decent pre-amp, wouldn't I?
 
Thanks a lot, Cancers, awesome answers, man. I'll try renting out a slicker pre-amp, perhaps one with some pre-compression and whatnot.
 
Yeah, if you can rent the preamp, kick-ass. We don't have anywhere local that will let us do it.
However, bear in mind that the subtle awesomeness imbued by a really nice preamp is gonna be smudged by the crappy digital to audio converters in your interface. That is, a $2000 preamp with a $100 interface means the weakest link in your signal chain is the $100 interface which means, whatever else you have in the signal chain, it's gonna sound like you used a $100 interface.

Which is not to say don't try renting a really nice preamp. It'll probably still sound better, and if you get a full featured channel strip (one with a compressor and eq built in), and can figure out how to use it to get a good sound, then there you go... You've got a good sound. Plus, it's really nice to be able to hear the difference between the entry level equipment and the high end stuff (I remember the first time I tried out a $3000 acoustic guitar after I had learned how to play a little on the piece of shit entry level acoustic I had bought. Worlds of difference... Good times).

But, yeah. Knowledge and experience are still the king and queen.
 
I want to also start producing my own line of music. The information here on the thread is really resourceful. Thanks for sharing, guys!
 
Well, I swung by the local shop today to find out that they had ONE pre-amp left to rent for a very decent monthly price.. Can't even remember the name of it, as it wasn't a model I was familiar with, but it was a pretty heavy-duty lookin peice of equipment.. the only reason why I didn't commit the name of this thing to memory is because the sales associate immediately talked me out of renting it when I asked him about plugging it into a simple M-Audio Fast Track Pro.. He compared it to putting expensive tires on a Geo.

He then told me that I could get a fairly decent sound out of the lacking equipment I have anyway by simply processing with my software, as he has succeeded in doing so in the past.. He then showed me some EQing tricks and compression tricks that I was kind of already aware of, but some of it was helpful. But still, I'm pretty confident that some hardware changes is what I truly need.. I've been messing around with the software for more than a year (I know, not long enough to consider myself anywhere near "knowledgeable", but I think I'd have SOME success by now).

I'm still thinking about renting this thing. He told me that the ART Tube was "good enough", and that he had no problem with it when he used to use it.. I'm thinking he was recording to softer music when this was so, though, as he was strumming an acoustic guitar when I first showed up, heh, while I'm working with some instrumentals that can sometimes be quite loud and very layered. He said that I COULD rent it anyway and give it a try, I may have some improvement, but he just kept on stressing about the software processing that I decided I'd give myself the day to think about it.

I understand that this pre-amp will be underused going into an M-Audio, but I don't see how adding a better peice of any equipment to any signal chain wouldn't make an improvement. It might not be a magical improvement, but right now I'm just looking for an improvement.
 
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