Unhappy with New Les Paul

[dave.....]

mutch better

and it got my attention ........ my advice ....... take it to a real pro what ever it cost to get it right will be worth it in the end

 

[CoolCat]

most likely problem is a badly adjusted truss rod resulting from the setup post purchase.. I would return it and get it done correctly.

yeah, but most likely the dewd that did it isn't any good... so whats the point of letting him hack at it again?

I mean if his ego exceeds his skills...maybe he'll whack up the frets next time?
or who knows what?

I'd write it off as a bad experience and go somewhere else.

I agree with getting it "re"-done right, but in this case go to someone else and check some credentials first.

 

[muttley600]

yeah, but most likely the dewd that did it isn't any good... so whats the point of letting him hack at it again?

I mean if his ego exceeds his skills...maybe he'll whack up the frets next time?
or who knows what?

I'd write it off as a bad experience and go somewhere else.

I agree with getting it "re"-done right, but in this case go to someone else and check some credentials first.

In which case I'd be asking for 50 little green beer tokens to be returned. However I'd give the guy a chance to explain before doing anything. He or she ego aside may have a different take on it..I'd certainly want to hear it.

 

[jimistone]

My bet is that the fucksticks in the shop aren't that good at doing a setup and the truss, bridge, and saddles need adjusting.
If they gave it back to you with fret buzz ....they suck ...end of story.
If the neck relief and action is set properly...I would get a new nut cut (pretty cheap).

One mistake that I see alot of guitar players making is putting way too many string wraps around the tuning peg. That can cause all kinds of problems...tuning being the first and foremost.

Wrap the string around the tuning peg ONE WRAP
(well actually 1/2 wrap. stick the string through the hole and leave just enough slack to get a turn started around the tuning peg).
That's all you need...the string should be tightening as it's completing the first wrap. After putting the strings on like this you need to stretch the shit out of them. Grab the string and pull it away from the guitar, then retune, and do it again and again until the pitch dosent change after you stretch it. Just be careful not to pull it out too far and break the string.

I just bought a les paul too and it didn't really play that good to start with and when I lowered the action I got fret buzz. A truss adjustment is all it needed and now it plays like a dream.

I did the setup on it....you should study up on this and do the setups yourself (there is a ton of info on this...do a net search).
You will do a better job than guys who don't even know what you want on a setup.
What plays good for me might not work for you and vice versa.

Step 1 is to make sure you don't have a zillion string wraps around your tuning pegs.

 

[ggunn]

One mistake that I see alot of guitar players making is putting way too many string wraps around the tuning peg. That can cause all kinds of problems...tuning being the first and foremost.

That's a myth, in my opinion. I wrap every string down to the headstock on my Les Paul and it stays in tune just fine. YMMV.

 

[Zaphod B]

I subscribe to the "less wraps is better" school of thought.

I realize that it's just like arguing about religion and politics, though.

Multiple wraps works just fine if you are keeping tension on the string as you wrap. The problem comes when there is slop on the peg.

Anyhow, all that wrapping and tuner turning is too much work for me. I use the locking technique and as little wrap as possible.

 

[SHEPPARDB.]

It's almost certainly neither.

Almost certainly?I'm going to remember that for the next time I get
asked an important question.

 

[Light]

one thing i noticed a few times is that the strings come out of the slot in the bridge. its happened a few times to me.

I haven't seen the guitar, so I can't make any real diagnosis, but this does tend to make me think there is a good chance the tailpiece is too high. You want it to be as low as it can go without the strings touching the bridge behind the saddles (i.e., there should be a small gap between the bottom of the E strings and the back edge of the bridge). This SHOULD give you enough break angle to keep the strings from popping out when they are at pitch.

One other question, though. What gauge of strings are you using? If you are using really light strings (like .008's or .009's), you're probably fucked, because they don't have enough tension in them. It will also cause your tuning problems.

I'll assume you do not have tuning problems with your other guitars, right? What are they (your other guitars, that is). More importantly, what kind of frets do they have. If you are used to smaller frets (such as on a lot of Fenders), and are using supper light strings, the height of the Gibson frets could easily cause your problems. In THAT case, it's not the guitar, it is operator error (god I hate telling customers that, but since your not actually paying me, I don't feel so bad). You need to learn to push down just hard enough to fret the string, which will probably not have you finger making really solid contact with the finger board. If you are used to smaller frets, you are probably also used to feeling the fingerboard, but if you push down that hard on the frets on most Gibson's, you will be (in effect) bending the string out of tune. This is a very common issue for people not used to big frets. Try going up a gauge or two on your strings, and see if that helps with the tuning/intonation issues.

And then of course there is Gibson's nuts these days. Pretty much the lamest excuse for a nut I've seen on a guitar. The slots are frequently cut too low, so they buzz, yet the slots are not deep enough to actually hold the string in the slot (as much as I like him, I kind of blame Dan Erlewine for this, because he is always telling people that the nut slot should leave the top half of the string exposed, which is total and utter crap. He's right on in a lot of ways, but way off on that one). And then, of course, Gibson puts on their nuts before they finish the guitars, so they are finished in, and in order to get them out you run a very real risk of damaging the finish on a new guitar. There are ways around this, of course, but it's a pain. And of course, if you are using larger strings than Gibson uses, you are probably running into issues with the nut sticking, causing the tuning problems.

On the whole, I think you need to get your guitar to a good repair shop, and see what they have to say. Sadly, all the work I saw out of Boston shops when I was out there doesn't bode well for your finding someone with a clue. Sorry.

All of this probably gives you the idea that there are a lot of possibilities, your right. Without seeing it, no one can ever really tell you what's wrong.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

Yes but you still haven't had one single answer that is even close to the answer you need to hear and there is a LOT of real mis-information in this thread as well. You are in effect right where you started but armed with a lot of incorrect and useless advice. A decent thread title would have prompted better responses. It is quality not quantity that counts in this instance.

Don't get me wrong I'm not a total prude but needless profanity dosent prompt me to respond. Thats just me I suppose...

I take it the title of this thread changed. Myself, I didn't even look until now, so take that for what it is worth for the value of an informative thread title.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

One mistake that I see alot of guitar players making is putting way too many string wraps around the tuning peg. That can cause all kinds of problems...tuning being the first and foremost.

Wrap the string around the tuning peg ONE WRAP
(well actually 1/2 wrap. stick the string through the hole and leave just enough slack to get a turn started around the tuning peg).
That's all you need...

That's a myth, in my opinion. I wrap every string down to the headstock on my Les Paul and it stays in tune just fine. YMMV.

Your both wrong. You need a couple of wraps to really hold the string, but all the way down leaves too much slack on the post.

More to the point, with the gears he has, even that isn't true. You pull the string as tight as you can, and then tune up. The gears lock and cut the string.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

More to the point, with the gears he has, even that isn't true. You pull the string as tight as you can, and then tune up. The gears lock and cut the string.

On a partially-related note, I replaced the stock tuners on my Schecter with the aforementioned Planet Waves Auto-Trim tuners, and it actually helped my guitar stay in tune quite a bit. Admittedly, I never really payed (paid?) much attention to how many wraps around the peg I made, but with respect to staying in-tune, it largely depends on your playing style, and your string gauge with respect to your tuning.

In regards to the fret-buzz, check out this page:

http://www.athensmusician.net/archive/2001-05-01_geneimbody1.php

You'll notice a neck with back-bow, caused by an incorrectly-tightened truss rod, will cause most every fret to buzz out. Most guitar shops, in my experience, aren't very good at adjusting the truss rod, and incorrectly assume that if the action's too high, it must be the truss rod. So they crank on it and bow the shit out of your neck, until the strings *look* low enough, then send you on your way.

I learned to set up my own guitars and I constantly get complements on the playability of me less-than-expensive axes.


*edit: here's another good page with a lot more detail:

http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/tutorial1.htm

 

[muttley600]

I take it the title of this thread changed. Myself, I didn't even look until now, so take that for what it is worth for the value of an informative thread title.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Yes the title has been changed it was just a bunch of expletives

As to your observations they seem to concur with mine so changing the thread title has obviously got him some decent advice in the end. It pays to be nice

By the way he says he's using 10's with a heavy bass and the frets buzz all the way up the neck. So my guess is more to do with badly adjusted truss rod and technique. The tailpiece and nut adjustment should have been done when it was setup as I suggested but it sounds like you have no faith in the local techs in his area. In which case someone might have to chip in and recommend someone for him there must be other players in his area that know a decent tech??

 

[muttley600]

You'll notice a neck with back-bow, caused by an incorrectly-tightened truss rod, will cause most every fret to buzz out.

Yep thats why I said this

The guitar played OK when new. The problem arose after a setup. The fact that it is strung with 10's and tuned to Eb is not likely the problem although a decent guitar tech will adjust the nut slots regardless of tension. The lower tension is dealt with by altering the neck relief. If most frets buzz as stated then the most likely problem is a badly adjusted truss rod resulting from the setup post purchase.. I would return it and get it done correctly. At the same time I would ask that the stop tailpiece is set correctly to stop the strings jumping the slots in the saddle. It needs a bigger break angle which will also help with tuning problems. Adjustment to the saddle slots is also most likely needed to accommodate the string gauge being used. Only after this has been done can you deal with any remaining tuning and intonation problems. On fat frets and heavier strings a lot of times tuning problems are down to bad setup (already discussed) and technique (its not that easy to jump a string from the saddle of a tunomatic bridge unless you play quite hard..I do it tho!!) Thats where I'd look first.

I think that is all he needs to know really as the guitar is new and he should get the guys who messed it up to put it right or find a shop in his area that can. Anyone know one for him?

 

[ggunn]

Your both wrong. You need a couple of wraps to really hold the string, but all the way down leaves too much slack on the post.

With all due respect, there is no right or wrong, there's just what works and what doesn't. What I do works for me; YMMV.

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

I think that is all he needs to know really as the guitar is new and he should get the guys who messed it up to put it right or find a shop in his area that can. Anyone know one for him?

Meh, I'm the kind of guy that'd rather learn how to fix shit myself, vs. having people screw it up for money... to each his own I guess

 

[willowhaus]

Geez...there's a lot of mythology running through this thread!

Bottom line: you got a bad setup. You took it back, they still didn't do it right - time to find someone who will. Any assessment here is speculation - you need to have the right balance of neck adjustment, bridge adjustment, & nut for it to play correctly, and without actually seeing it there's no way anyone's advice can be taken as gospel - EXCEPT the fact that it's not right now, and you need to find a good tech to fix it or learn to do it yourself.

I just started doing my own guitars (after playing for almost 30 years) & it's not that hard, once you have the tools & follow a good procedure. I used the Guitar Player Repair Guide by Dan Erlewine, and worked off of the basic factory setups he lists for Fender & Gibson for my guitars, and they came out great.

One thing he talks about is setting your neck straight, with little or no relief, & your action high. I was always a low-as-you-can person until I tried this approach - I found that it really brought out the tone of my guitars, though! The basic idea is that a straight neck improves the acoustic resonance of the instrument. This necessitates raising the action to get rid of fret buzz - the neck relief is a sort of cheat to get around this & drop the action - but really, it's not that bad once you get used to it, and the improvement in tone is well worth it IMHO.

Bonus tips: for you guys who don't use locking pegs (my PRS has them, but not my other guitars) what you really want to do when re-stringing is to pull the string through the peghead, and then bend the string back against the direction of the wind, i.e. if the peg is going clockwise, bend the string end counter-clockwise. This gives the peghead something to grab onto, so the string won't slip back through the hole under tension. I usually leave enough slack for 1 1/2-2 wraps around, which has always been sufficient to hold it in place. And yeah, stretch your new strings. I give them a tug from the middle, like drawing a bow, and then run the "pull" from bridge to nut a couple times. This usually stretches them enough to stay 99% stable - play on 'em for a short time (20 minutes, maybe) & they'll work themselves in.

 

[ggunn]

Bonus tips: for you guys who don't use locking pegs (my PRS has them, but not my other guitars) what you really want to do when re-stringing is to pull the string through the peghead, and then bend the string back against the direction of the wind, i.e. if the peg is going clockwise, bend the string end counter-clockwise. This gives the peghead something to grab onto, so the string won't slip back through the hole under tension.

I never do anything special at the post when I put on strings; it just makes them a PITA to get off when it's time to change them. With a few wraps around the peg, slipping back through the hole will never happen.

 

[muttley600]

Geez...there's a lot of mythology running through this thread!

Bottom line: you got a bad setup. You took it back, they still didn't do it right - time to find someone who will. Any assessment here is speculation - you need to have the right balance of neck adjustment, bridge adjustment, & nut for it to play correctly, and without actually seeing it there's no way anyone's advice can be taken as gospel - EXCEPT the fact that it's not right now, and you need to find a good tech to fix it or learn to do it yourself.

I just started doing my own guitars (after playing for almost 30 years) & it's not that hard, once you have the tools & follow a good procedure. I used the Guitar Player Repair Guide by Dan Erlewine, and worked off of the basic factory setups he lists for Fender & Gibson for my guitars, and they came out great.

One thing he talks about is setting your neck straight, with little or no relief, & your action high. I was always a low-as-you-can person until I tried this approach - I found that it really brought out the tone of my guitars, though! The basic idea is that a straight neck improves the acoustic resonance of the instrument. This necessitates raising the action to get rid of fret buzz - the neck relief is a sort of cheat to get around this & drop the action - but really, it's not that bad once you get used to it, and the improvement in tone is well worth it IMHO.

Bonus tips: for you guys who don't use locking pegs (my PRS has them, but not my other guitars) what you really want to do when re-stringing is to pull the string through the peghead, and then bend the string back against the direction of the wind, i.e. if the peg is going clockwise, bend the string end counter-clockwise. This gives the peghead something to grab onto, so the string won't slip back through the hole under tension. I usually leave enough slack for 1 1/2-2 wraps around, which has always been sufficient to hold it in place. And yeah, stretch your new strings. I give them a tug from the middle, like drawing a bow, and then run the "pull" from bridge to nut a couple times. This usually stretches them enough to stay 99% stable - play on 'em for a short time (20 minutes, maybe) & they'll work themselves in.

Where is the mythology. Granted there is a lot of mis-information as I've already stated. Your "assesment"

you need to have the right balance of neck adjustment, bridge adjustment, & nut for it to play correctly,

is rather a statement of obvious fact and really of no help here. The diagnosis that I and others have posted is in my best estimation correct (I'd lay money on it). The only other possibilities are ones that involve material defects rather than workmanship. All that is based on many many years of guitar building and 1000's of setups.

The problem has been identified and the best course of action suggested, ie take it back armed with the consensus of opinion here and ask them to set it up right. If they can't or wont, get your money back and take it elsewhere.

If I bought a LP I'd want it set up right before I left the shop with it and I KNOW how to do it.

Your bonus tip is nonsense and is just adding to your so called "mythology" While we are on the subject of mythology can you explain how a straight set neck "increases the resonance of the instrument" I really am intrigued.

 

[jimistone]

Your bonus tip is nonsense and is just adding to your so called "mythology" While we are on the subject of mythology can you explain how a straight set neck "increases the resonance of the instrument" I really am intrigued.

I'm curious too.

I think I may know the answer though...
I guess a guitar with a crooked set neck dosen't get played....cause it sucks...and therefore dosen't resonate as much as one, with a straight set neck, that actually gets played.

 

[willowhaus]

Your "assesment" is rather a statement of obvious fact and really of no help here.

You know what? My assessment was basically that, without seeing the guitar, then any specific recommendation is speculation. Maybe his nut is poorly cut - maybe not. Maybe the bridge is too high - or not. Until you see it, you don't know for sure what the problem is.

And maybe it's obvious to you - but apparently not to the OP, who would have figured it out on his own in the first place.

The problem has been identified and the best course of action suggested, ie take it back armed with the consensus of opinion here and ask them to set it up right. If they can't or wont, get your money back and take it elsewhere.

Which is exactly what I said he should do. Apparently, you missed that part. Except that I'd skip the step of taking it back a third time, since they already messed it up twice.

Your bonus tip is nonsense and is just adding to your so called "mythology"

Bending the string at the post works, and I offered the tip to be helpful. It's not my invention, but I've used it for years. Believe what you want, I don't give a damn if you want to superglue your strings in, but you don't have to be a dick about it.

While we are on the subject of mythology can you explain how a straight set neck "increases the resonance of the instrument" I really am intrigued.

If I thought you really wanted an answer I'd explain it. Since the rest of your post is so mean-spirited, do your own research if you really want to know.