Unfair Studio Prices

[stonepiano]

I see your point distorted... When I said build yourself a studio, I meant spending $10-15K like I have for something to do beyond pre-production or good demos .

If you're gonna buy an M-audio audiophile, a Blue Tube, a 319, Sonar and a pair BX-5s, then I'm sure you can continue to write and use your home pad efficiently without sacrificing some portion of your performance/songwriting dreams.

The problem I ran into, like so many others, is that I chose to spend less and less time continuing to develop my skills as a player/writer and spent more time understanding the way to run a recording studio (technically and in a business sense) to the point where I lost track of why I wanted to learn to do all this.

I started this to be another Brian Wilson or a Pete Townshend. Now, I'm looking and feeling more like Roger Nichols. Not a bad thing to be, but I'm saddened at the things I gave up by shifting my priorities. Now, I wonder if I can hit reverse and concentrate more on writing and performing again. It's a fine line that not everyone can ride efficiently....

 

[distortedrumble]

ah yes....i understand....10-15k on a studio would definetly put me in a situation where i would let go of some stuff. i've resorted to doing some construction work to pay for some higher priced equipment but i live with a drummer and bass player so i hope my music ability wont fade.

 

[Farview]

Yeah - but it's a bit of a myth that they can "do it themselves"....... I had a great discussion with Mark McQuilken at FMR AUdio last week - we both seemed to notice a trend starting back towards using professional studios again. Seems people ARE starting to realize their limitations with regards to DIY and acknowledging that engineering and making the final result sound professional does take more than simply buying newly-affordable gear.

Good point! I am always amazed at the number of people here that start a thread like "I record a lot of area bands, I'm not very technical, how can I record 8 channels at once out of a 4 bus board"
I want to help, but I can't shake the notion that I am helping to cheapen the thing I make a living at. It has gotten to the point that when people come over to check the studio out, they are suprised that it isn't in my basement.
(ending rant prematurly to get asprin)

 

[distortedrumble]

i dont feel like your cheapening it because i cant afford the equipment you have. and to get things sounding the way i'd want them on a professionally done cd, i need to get the equipment you have and your knowledge...when its all said and done and i take out a small business loan....I might have the same equipment but not the knowledge. even if you throw out a few tips and tricks here and there, i know theres more to it than just that trick so you shouldnt worry too much there.

now as a musician, i was more than humbled by my first studio experience. i walked out with a bunch of 'shoulda, coulda, wouldas' because i spent 300 bucks on a few recordings and i thought they sucked, i kept messing up rhythms and i knew the engineer was getting frustrated. i basically walked away thinking i spent 300 bucks to feel stupid. so i figure i would get my ideas together and then go into a pro studio after i get used to recording so i dont come off looking/sounding like crap. for that reason i support basement studios. but on the same idea there. my expectations are higher going into a pro studio because i know i can make a decent recording at home.

 

[BrettB]

Good point! I am always amazed at the number of people here that start a thread like "I record a lot of area bands, I'm not very technical, how can I record 8 channels at once out of a 4 bus board"
I want to help, but I can't shake the notion that I am helping to cheapen the thing I make a living at. It has gotten to the point that when people come over to check the studio out, they are suprised that it isn't in my basement.
(ending rant prematurly to get asprin)

Ppl often expect too much from a simple home studio and underestimate engineering skills and experience!

 

[Farview]

so i figure i would get my ideas together and then go into a pro studio after i get used to recording so i dont come off looking/sounding like crap. for that reason i support basement studios. but on the same idea there. my expectations are higher going into a pro studio because i know i can make a decent recording at home.

That is exactly what the stuff everyone seems to have in their bedroom is for, demoing ideas. And that is very cool! I like it when people come in knowing what they are doing. It actually makes me look good because the fun level goes up and so does the quality of the product. It also saves the musicians money because they have tried all the ideas they have and know which ones work. (no wasted time)
The problem I have is when people confuse the two. Yes you can do a good job at home on a 2480, but by the time you have learned to get the most out of it (after spending $4k on it and mics and monitors) you have probably forgotten why you got it in the first place.
This is all I do, every day. I don't have another job. I don't write songs. Hell, I don't even watch that much TV. I do sound. It is all I'm focused on and that is why people pay me to engineer their stuff.
(rant ended early, I can think faster than I can type and something shiny caught my attention)

 

[giles117]

Well 2 add my 2 cents. I built a studio as I needed a predicatable environment to mix in. My sell point was me and my engineering ability. And that is how I sell myself. My Skills. And oh yeah, a great sounding room you can work in at no additional cost. Although I do market to new clients as a studio and then win them over as i like his way of thinking his producers assistance and his mixing.

 

[Farview]

dude, your website is down.

 

[giles117]

Yeah My server is sitting behind me not booting up, have no idea what is wrong.

 

[glynb]

Yeah - but it's a bit of a myth that they can "do it themselves"....... I had a great discussion with Mark McQuilken at FMR AUdio last week - we both seemed to notice a trend starting back towards using professional studios again. Seems people ARE starting to realize their limitations with regards to DIY and acknowledging that engineering and making the final result sound professional does take more than simply buying newly-affordable gear.

Well there are 'limitations' (skill), limitations (equipement), and 'limitations' (money).

If money were abundant I'd just constantly book pro studios and noodle around like pink floyd until i came up with some decent sounding music. But I'm not wealthy. For a well rehearsed band 'on the up', with a good live following, market for their product, management in place etc, then a pro studio may undoubtedly be the best option. But for some starting out, or just in it for fun, etc, it may be best to take the money and buy some equipement on which they can make endless demos and experimentations without watching the clock tick ($$$).

I think it's this latter part of the market that is drying up for studios, as kids are making their own demos rather than saving up their pocket money and going into a studio.

I'm all in favour of good pro studios, just think SOME people would be better advised to buy some home recording equipment to experiment with their song writing on rather than spending the same cash on a pro sounding one-off 4 track demo.

 

[distortedrumble]

that gives me another question...how much do you pro studios make off of frivolous crap that musicians want to record? I'm thinking its a pretty penny.

 

[chessrock]

Unfortunately, as with anything else, you can't escape the laws of supply and demand . . . nor can you escape any of the other very basic economic forces that exist in any free market.

The supply of recording facilities and engineers has been going up while the demand for those services has either been going down or staying the same in relation to that supply. I'd be pretty surprized not to see studio prices going down, to be honest -- something would certainly have to be out of whack for that to not happen.

Add to that the statistics for small businesses in general: About 90% or so fail in their first year of operation. And of the ones that make it that far, most don't even turn a profit untill their third or fourth year.

But the main problem I see in audio has more to do with the demand side of the equation. Most of the end users either can't distinguish the differences in quality between the inferior and the superior product. It goes back to the whole "People think that MP3's sound good" thing. As an engineer, you might bring a lot of things to the table, and your recordings just might be superior to the next guy's, but the amount of people who can recognize and appreciate that aren't in great supply. Obviously, there are people who understand and appreciate good sound quality -- just not enough, I don't think.

Then you have to consider the state of the economy in general -- maybe the economy is just such that there isn't enough disposable income amongst your target market for people to justify the expense. Poor, starving artist don't necessarily make for a lucrative market to begin with. So many factors at work.

Someone mentioned unionizing . . . wich is all good in theory, but c'mon now. It's just not going to happen. Studios that can't afford labor in the first place certainly can't afford organized labor. Not to mention the ample supply of audio school grads that would be more than willing to cross any picket lines in the hopes of landing work. Eventually, market forces will correct the situation. The studios that can't charge enough to survive will go under. Word will get out and people who once thought about going in to audio will think twice and open a flower shop or something instead.

In the meantime, the only thing I can see happening would be if every studio / engineer were to adopt some sort of standards. Problem is we're a very disorganized bunch to begin with. If we had any sort of organization, we might be able to adopt some universal "standards." For instance, don't work for for free. That might be a good place to start. Another idea might be: don't charge less than $25 / hour or something along those lines. Obviously, this would all be very difficult to enforce or penalize, and all it would take would be for one or two guys to break those codes and they'd be useless.

But these are things that other industries practice all the time, so I don't see why it would be out of the question for the independent studio owner or freelance engineer.

 

[mshilarious]

Someone mentioned unionizing . . . wich is all good in theory, but c'mon now. It's just not going to happen. Studios that can't afford labor in the first place certainly can't afford organized labor. Not to mention the ample supply of audio school grads that would be more than willing to cross any picket lines in the hopes of landing work. Eventually, market forces will correct the situation. The studios that can't charge enough to survive will go under. Word will get out and people who once thought about going in to audio will think twice and open a flower shop or something instead.

In the meantime, the only thing I can see happening would be if every studio / engineer were to adopt some sort of standards. Problem is we're a very disorganized bunch to begin with. If we had any sort of organization, we might be able to adopt some universal "standards." For instance, don't work for for free. That might be a good place to start. Another idea might be: don't charge less than $25 / hour or something along those lines. Obviously, this would all be very difficult to enforce or penalize, and all it would take would be for one or two guys to break those codes and they'd be useless.

Actually that would be illegal price fixing. At least you can't have a formal policy like that. Like with real estate agents, they get mad if a member drops their commission, but they can't do anything about it.

You have the right idea, but the answer might be professional certification. I remember think that reading Fletcher's rant on his site.

So professional engineers need to organize and create a certification that includes the following:

1) minimum educational standard
2) apprenticeship
3) continuing education
4) ethical standards (ie "I will not use AutoTune on Britney Spears")
5) licensing exam

Once that's done, all you have is a piece of paper, but if you get all the good guys on board, and the majors all demand certified engineers on their recordings, then there will be a pretty clear line between the wannabes and the pros.

I'm a dedicated wannabe; both in the studio & my chosen profession: beancountin'. And I will never be converted to the dark side!!!

 

[boingoman]

Another idea might be: don't charge less than $25 / hour or something along those lines. Obviously, this would all be very difficult to enforce or penalize, and all it would take would be for one or two guys to break those codes and they'd be useless.

But these are things that other industries practice all the time, so I don't see why it would be out of the question for the independent studio owner or freelance engineer.

I believe they call that price fixing , and is, to say the least, frowned upon. Good idea, though, and this is a good thread. The industry seems to be in some kind of flux, and I think naturally will hit a new state. I'm familiar with something similar from the live sound end. Any guy with a 1604 and a couple of speakers can underbid me for a gig. Mostly I don't mind because I usually get the call for the next one........ At some point you hit a level that forces you to go for it or not. I have found there is always a niche if you are willing to look for it. For us it was a big jump in system size and equipping to do corporate gigs, and investing in rental gear. Booooorriing but good money and let us bid on bigger concert gigs. Working with people helps, too. We have just started to get our feet wet recording. Being good friends with a couple local studios has helped a lot. They toss us work they can't do or don't want, like some basic band demos and voice over work. We, in turn, try to be realistic about what we can do, and always recommend more experienced studios when appropriate.

I think the punters will weed themselves out.

 

[chessrock]

I believe they call that price fixing , and is, to say the least, frowned upon.

True . . . but isn't it also an unethical practice to purposely lose money in order to gain competitive advantage or market share? A business should be penalized in some way for not charging a rate that is at the very least conducive to meeting expenses so as to be a self-sustaining if not profitable entity.

I don't believe those who are simply "doing it for fun" or to develop a name or whatever should be allowed to advertise or otherwise compete aggressively in the same markets as those who are a legitimate business trying to make money, in my opinion.

 

[mshilarious]

True . . . but isn't it also an unethical practice to purposely lose money in order to gain competitive advantage or market share?

Yeah, that's called predatory pricing, and it's illegal for a monopoly. Not sure if it's illegal for other businesses, I don't think so. Since a nonmonopolistic competitor can't survive by losing money, there really isn't a need for a legal remedy.

 

[chessrock]

Since a nonmonopolistic competitor can't survive by losing money, there really isn't a need for a legal remedy.

Not unless it's a hobby, a second job, or a means to help pay for your recording gear / project studio, a tax write-off. . . or trying to break in to a market, get some experience, hopefully make a name for yourself, etc.

Any number of reasons why people are involved in it for reasons other than making a profit.

 

[mshilarious]

Any number of reasons why people are involved in it for reasons other than making a profit.

Sure, but I don't understand your point. Do you want to ban hobbyists?

Actually local zoning laws might very well accomplish that . . . I can't legally run a commercial studio in my house, at least for tracking, since I am not allowed a non-professional (doctor, dentist, etc.) home occupation where clients visit.

 

[giles117]

well my server is halfway up Just cant get the dang virtual host thing to work right. Anyone know how to correctly specify a document root in Apache 2? I always get lost there and never recall how it was done.

 

[stonepiano]

Hey Chess,

A business should be penalized in some way for not charging a rate that is conducive to meeting expenses so as to be a self-sustaining if not profitable entity.

Who's gonna police what is paid in basement studios? Or perhaps you're suggesting everyone advertise these rates "conducive to profitability" only to turn to bargaining and bartering when the deal goes down.

I'll admit it: I think it's a solid business plan in this market sector to develop skills at low rates for the mutual benefit of both project studio and artist. The only party this arrangement hurts is the one who theoretically would have been paid the premium rates. In this case, guys at the big studios.

Also, I'm still at the stage where, even though I've dumped thousands into this, I won't go bankrupt if I don't profit immediately. I guess I'm the bad guy until I need my studio to pay all the bills.

I don't believe those who are simply "doing it for fun" or to develop a name should be allowed to advertise or otherwise compete aggressively in the same markets as those who are a legitimate business trying to make money.

C'mon. Do you think all studios that advertise in local music rags are in the same markets?

In every game, you've got big players, medium outfits and small potatoes.

More options means the chances are better that the artist will hook up with a studio at the level upon which they'll happily do business. I know my music doesn't justify recording time at the big studios downtown but I will pay someone to record my music in a project basement studio.

I'll also add that, learning to engineer by way of owning your own project studio appears to me as the far preferred method of education in this field as opposed to recording school (Full Sail, Columbia here in Chicago, etc). I've met some of the graduates and haven't been blown away by their knowledge.