Two New(er) Songs from Lemon Test! - Recording Suggestions, etc.

Confusitron

Confusitron

New member
It's been a little while and I did some recording toward the end of September so...

Two new (actually over a month old now) tracks from Lemon Test are available for download! Click on the links below to go to a page where the songs can be downloaded, or go to Lemon Test's MySpace or Purevolume site to listen to the songs ("Train" and "Bull Market").

Click here to download "Train"!

Click here to download "Bull Market"!

I'd like some criticism on these works. I think they're an improvement over older recordings ("Sand Dollar", "Street Robbery"). What do you think of the mix? Since I had trouble with these things in the past, how do the drums and vocals sound to you? The bass seems a bit overbearing in "Bull Market".

I am venturing into further recording (of two more songs) this upcoming Thanksgiving break/weekend and would like to get a better grasp of things.

I will explain more things later and if you have any questions, I'll try to answer them.

Any input is appreciated.

Thanks for listening!
 
Not much to criticise, except maybe the cymbals are a little harsh. The high hats sound nice, but they sound like they're being picked up by too many mics, I hear them seem to leak into both overheads and they're a little all over the place sound-wise. The only other thing, and I hate to say this because I don't believe in telling someone HOW to play their instrument, but the drummer rides on his crash sometimes and it's noisy as fuck...
But I love the song and the playing is good. Cool arrangement, very dynamic. Very good singing and nice voice...Good stuff.
 
RAMI said:
Not much to criticise, except maybe the cymbals are a little harsh. The high hats sound nice, but they sound like they're being picked up by too many mics, I hear them seem to leak into both overheads and they're a little all over the place sound-wise. The only other thing, and I hate to say this because I don't believe in telling someone HOW to play their instrument, but the drummer rides on his crash sometimes and it's noisy as fuck...
But I love the song and the playing is good. Cool arrangement, very dynamic. Very good singing and nice voice...Good stuff.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the examination and nice words.

Yeah, about the loud crash cymbal and hi-hats. I may have mixed the overheads a bit loud... I thought the crash was a tad bit obnoxious when I was doing the mixing, but, I don't know why I didn't do anything about it. Basically, I placed two overheads (MXL MXL991) over each side of the set, focusing on the cymbals and toms. I didn't have separate mics for the toms, but this time around I will. Do you suggest... I don't know if their is a name for the pattern, but, for instance, both overheads placed on one stand and placed in the center of the set, with each mike aiming hard toward right or left? Or should both mics be separate on each side of the set positioned closer to the cymbals?

Also, I know compression can be used on drums and things, but to a certain extent. What kind of ratios should I be using for bass drum, snare, toms, and cymbals?

Thanks again.
 
Continuation

I should probably state, as I have in the past, that I am recording with a PreSonus Firepod using Cubase SX.

I have more questions and statements.

If you'll notice in "Bull Market", the guitar lacks a lot "beef" on the choruses, which I don't think was a matter of low volume in the mixing. What ways can I go about thickening the guitar tone? What frequencies should be augmented? Should I apply any compression to the guitar in general?

The only compression I used in these mixes was on the bass drum and vocals. Should it be applied to anything else, like bass, for instance? I was initially going to use it on the bass, but was having trouble finding good settings. What ratios and attack times, etc., should be used, or should I base it on experimentation?


Miking/Line Input

I miked the guitar amp (Fender Twin Rever '65) with and Audio-Technica AT2020 and an MXL MXL991. The Audio-Technica was used for close miking on the speaker cabinet with approximately 4" of space between the speaker cone and microphone body, with the mike positioned half way between the center of the speaker and the outer edge. The MXL was used as a cabinet mike, positioned about two feet away from the cabinet aiming center between the two 12" speakers. Anything I might want to change? I lack an SM57, but the AT2020 seems to do a nice job. It can handle the SPLs.

The bass was recorded via preamp out from a Peavey TNT 115 S into the Firepod. The bass was also run through a Guyatone Sustainer pedal (I do not know the exact model or anything). Anything that should be changed here?

I've found a few articles on these subjects and I'll try to use what information they provide, but any other suggestions would be appreciated.


Whole Track Volume

I've had a problem getting whole tracks up to proper volume as well. The ones I have are a tad bit below the "industry standard" level. I try to make them louder, but I find that I can only add approximately 7 decibels of volume, with a limiter used as well, before they sound like a limiter was used. I tried using compression, but I found it difficult to find proper settings. In Cubase, I find that I have to export the track and then apply the extra stuff. Is there some other way of doing this without exporting? It becomes rather tedious.

Thanks for any input, again.
 
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listening to train

i agree with rami, probably the precieved harshness in the cimbals has to do with bleed in the snare and possibly other mics.

have you tried gating the kick and snare?

my only real problem is it feels like the performance is happening in 3 different rooms. it doesn't sound like a band, it sounds like a bunch of performers.
you need to "put them in the same room" somehow. this is often done with reverb.
some of the oooooo's are a little two loud
and i think that's comb filtering on the distorted guit??? did you 2 mics to record it?? maby im just wrong, but i'd turn it up at any rate.
maby turn the vox up a little?
it sounds good, i'm just being critical.
 
giraffe said:
listening to train

i agree with rami, probably the precieved harshness in the cimbals has to do with bleed in the snare and possibly other mics.

have you tried gating the kick and snare?

my only real problem is it feels like the performance is happening in 3 different rooms. it doesn't sound like a band, it sounds like a bunch of performers.
you need to "put them in the same room" somehow. this is often done with reverb.
some of the oooooo's are a little two loud
and i think that's comb filtering on the distorted guit??? did you 2 mics to record it?? maby im just wrong, but i'd turn it up at any rate.
maby turn the vox up a little?
it sounds good, i'm just being critical.
Click to expand...
I did experiment with gating on the kick and snare, but I'm never sure of what is right as far as settings go. It always seemed too drastic. Any settings you suggest?

What do you suggest for the reverb? For vocals, I kept the reverb to a minimum of 0.20 ms with room size to the smallest. I had like a 60 percent dry mix with that. What should I do about overall reverb on the instruments?

There is no comb filtering that I know of on the guitar, and actually, I'm unfamiliar with the term, unless you're referring to RF video signals (which I still don't know that much about)... Yes, it was recorded with two mics, with the method I explained in the above posts.

Thanks for the input and comments.
 
Listening to Train right now, sounds pretty good. The snare sounds a little dull to me, maybe a little compression w/ a slow attack to bring out a little more "pop"
Ditto on the second track... other than it sounds sweet.
 
as far as vocals go, the reverb is perfect in my opinion, but they sound like you rolled off the highs with an eq. it is so very rare that i have ever eq'ed a person's voice. the only times i can think of are for hardcore screamers who are a little too harsh on my 57, or for a 50's effect when using my condensors.

the drums sound decent, i actually like the toms. But again, not enough treble i don't think

To thicken the guitars, how many takes did you do? The delay is going to be hard to match with another take, but even some of the same chords in places would thicken it up with just a simple strum on each chord change.

Just some food for thought. And if you didn't EQ the vox, how'd you record them? maybe the need to be EQ'ed....you know, to contradict myself.
 
zoom waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay in on the 2 distorted git waveforms.
make sure that the attack of the note (any note, when one is lined up the rest will follow) is in exactly the same place on both tracks.
 
reshp1 said:
Listening to Train right now, sounds pretty good. The snare sounds a little dull to me, maybe a little compression w/ a slow attack to bring out a little more "pop"
Ditto on the second track... other than it sounds sweet.
Click to expand...
Maybe... The snare sounds better than it did in the past. I was using a condensor mic (MXL MXL990) before, but switched to an Audix OM-2, which is better. I'll try some compression on my next recordings.

TravisK said:
as far as vocals go, the reverb is perfect in my opinion, but they sound like you rolled off the highs with an eq. it is so very rare that i have ever eq'ed a person's voice. the only times i can think of are for hardcore screamers who are a little too harsh on my 57, or for a 50's effect when using my condensors.

the drums sound decent, i actually like the toms. But again, not enough treble i don't think

To thicken the guitars, how many takes did you do? The delay is going to be hard to match with another take, but even some of the same chords in places would thicken it up with just a simple strum on each chord change.

Just some food for thought. And if you didn't EQ the vox, how'd you record them? maybe the need to be EQ'ed....you know, to contradict myself.
Click to expand...
I believe I did roll the highs off with an EQ on the vocals. This was because when the reverb was applied, the highs became too present. I might mess around with something different this time. Does it sound too dead?

The drums... More treble in what way?

Maybe to thicken the guitar I should just duplicate tracks. Maybe I could see about the strumming as well.

giraffe said:
zoom waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay in on the 2 distorted git waveforms.
make sure that the attack of the note (any note, when one is lined up the rest will follow) is in exactly the same place on both tracks.
Click to expand...
Maybe this was the case. But, actually, these songs have all ready been given out to people, etc. I'll try to put up some preliminary mixes on here to see what I should do for these upcoming songs.

Thanks for the input, again.
 
Typing as I'm listening...

"Train" I really like the clean tone you have here, and the echo effect you have going. Sounds great, drives the song very well.
IMO, the vocals could fit a tad clearer... maybe reduce the midrange a tad, increase the higher range and raise them a tad.. I don't know, I'm no vocal expert, they sound good, but sound to me like they could be improved a bit.
Really cool instrumental part around 2:50
I think the rhythm at 3:25 is a bit too loud in the mix.
Overall tight playing and cool song. I enjoyed it.

"Bull Market"
Cool sounds again, you have your own style here. For expanding the sounds of a guitar, I'd try double tracking or recording another version of the track and pan them slightly different. That'd increase the overall spacial feel and impact of a guitar part. The guitar does sound real good at 2:50. Sounds like there's a lead part in there that's hard to hear. I'd bring that up some. Bass sounds good too.

Nice work man, enjoyed it. ;)
 
Bull Market

Nice tune - very original, with catchy vocals and good rhythms.

Mix ....on my computer speakers.
Overall volume is good....
Drums - cymbals are a bit bright/loud. - snare seems boxy(?) I heard you can try try rolling off 400 hz to lose boxiness(?). Could use some clarity there.
Guitar - seems to be ok, compression usually provided by the amp/processor anyway. Maybe panning a bit to distinguish the different guitars.
Vocals - on the higher/louder vocals (chorus) the vocals seem to get muddy. Maybe too much compression. Not sure.... The verses are nice and clear.

Pretty cool tune .....
 
SnakeDog5050 said:
Typing as I'm listening...

"Train" I really like the clean tone you have here, and the echo effect you have going. Sounds great, drives the song very well.
IMO, the vocals could fit a tad clearer... maybe reduce the midrange a tad, increase the higher range and raise them a tad.. I don't know, I'm no vocal expert, they sound good, but sound to me like they could be improved a bit.
Really cool instrumental part around 2:50
I think the rhythm at 3:25 is a bit too loud in the mix.
Overall tight playing and cool song. I enjoyed it.

"Bull Market"
Cool sounds again, you have your own style here. For expanding the sounds of a guitar, I'd try double tracking or recording another version of the track and pan them slightly different. That'd increase the overall spacial feel and impact of a guitar part. The guitar does sound real good at 2:50. Sounds like there's a lead part in there that's hard to hear. I'd bring that up some. Bass sounds good too.

Nice work man, enjoyed it. ;)
Click to expand...
Thanks for the compliments! I (and we) appreciate it.

Since we just recorded a new song today (and it was probably the best and most efficient recording session yet), I'll mess around with the vocals we recorded a bit more. Some times the syllables in the singing are either lost from just a lack of diction in the singing or poor definition with equalization. I'll experiment a bit more.

I'll mess around with some guitar panning this time. That could possibly "beef" things up, correct? Yes, the lead part does seem a bit hard to hear. I brought out enough that it's audible though.

Thanks for listening!

ido1957 said:
Bull Market

Nice tune - very original, with catchy vocals and good rhythms.

Mix ....on my computer speakers.
Overall volume is good....
Drums - cymbals are a bit bright/loud. - snare seems boxy(?) I heard you can try try rolling off 400 hz to lose boxiness(?). Could use some clarity there.
Guitar - seems to be ok, compression usually provided by the amp/processor anyway. Maybe panning a bit to distinguish the different guitars.
Vocals - on the higher/louder vocals (chorus) the vocals seem to get muddy. Maybe too much compression. Not sure.... The verses are nice and clear.

Pretty cool tune .....
Click to expand...
Thanks for the kind words as well!

The cymbals were on the loud side. I haven't really touched the snare much as far as sound goes, and I probably should. I think I used a 5:1 compression ratio on the vocals... It may have gotten muddy.

Thanks for the input, you all, again.

For the guitar panning, should it be a hard left or right, or part way? To a speaker?
 
Confusitron said:
For the guitar panning, should it be a hard left or right, or part way? To a speaker?
Click to expand...
Well there seems to be two schools of thought re panning. Some people like hard panning two guitars L/R, others like just like slight panning to either side. Then there are those who say pan it the way you like it..... :D . I think I'm somewhere in the middle (lol)......
Maybe try a few mixes with the various panning techniques and see what sounds good to you.
Don't forget to post your new tune when you can......looking forward to it....
 
I believe I did roll the highs off with an EQ on the vocals. This was because when the reverb was applied, the highs became too present. I might mess around with something different this time. Does it sound too dead?

The drums... More treble in what way?

Maybe to thicken the guitar I should just duplicate tracks. Maybe I could see about the strumming as well.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the vox sound a bit dead. I used to think our stuff was too harsh, but it was because you are quicker to chang eyour own when it doesn't sound like what you just heard live. Make sure that you don't over compensate. Harshness can be covered by a slight roll off, or cutting key frequencies. See if you can eliminate a slight area of the frequency range rather than a whole section. also, some de-essing plugins can be nice if you use them SLIGHTLY. I'm talking no more than 10% wet mix, and a lot of dry. But either way, i can hear your EQ, and that's normally not good on vocals.

As far as the toms, I think i'm needing to hear more of the attack and ring. (Toms specifically) I can't recall exactly what it needs as I am without speakers ATM. I hope that helps!
 
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Insert title here...!

Just listening to Train

I agree about the comments made so far about the drums - loud crash etc, although I do like the sound of the snare. The clean guitar sounds a tiny bit dry. Perhaps you could add a subtle amount of plate reverb, which would also help thicken it out a bit (in terms of stereo width, which the drums are rather dominating in at the moment). I also feel that the vocal needs to be brighter - it sounds a little muddy in my headphones...

Bearing in mind, I'm not nearly as experienced as some of the guys here.

EDIT: Just listening to Bull Market: Again, I feel that the vocals are a little muddy and could be slightly brighter. Perhaps a combination high-pass filter rolling bass off below 140Hz and a slight boost to the upper mids.

Cheers :-)
 
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Just in!

If you're interested, there is a song from a recent gig of ours on our MySpace. It's titled "Untitled Live". The song isn't totally developed. I helped to write the bass part (though it is not me playing). I mixed it via mix B on the house mixer through some Vic Firth isolation headphones. That was my first time ever doing live recording from a mixer. It was recorded into a MiniDV camcorder of mine.

http://www.myspace.com/lemontest

Enjoy!

I'll have more later.
 
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Another question!

I need to bring out the bass drum in the mix I'm working on for this new song... What kind of compression and EQing should I use to bring it out? It lacks the thump it needs, and the attack I'd get from the beater, if I had miked that.

Thanks.
 
Listened to TRAIN. I think that this mix has good potential. I think everything has been recorded pretty decent, but your levels arent happening right now. I would turn down the cymbals and your drum mix, and would make the guitar and bass more prominent in the mix. GOOD LUCK.
 
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