two hi hat mic technique?

[jamiecer]

I've got a session this weekend and I'd like to try the "two hi hat mic technique." I know that one can use a 57 and tape a SD condenser to the side of it, but is there a speciffic way to do this correctly? I imagine you need to possision them so that the diaphragms are ligned up exactly.

Thanks

Jamie

 

[littledog]

Are you recording "Concerto for Hi Hat"?

A lot of us either don't bother mic'ing the hi-hat at all (getting plenty from the overheads) or mic it as a safety track with whatever mic we have left over, and then half the time don't even use it.

So I'm curious what kind of music are you doing that would require TWO hi-hat mics? (I'm not being derisive, just curious!)

 

[jamiecer]

Nothing that dramatic.

This is just a cool technique where you are able to get a great sound on the hat. By blending the airy room sound of the condenser and the focused metalic sound of the dynamic you are able to achive a very natural sounding hat. This trick works really well if you put a square (or any orther shape I guess) of foam between the hat and the snare. This will isolate the bleed of the snare into the hat mics and vise-versa. You can then treat the hat as it's own instrument.

As for what type of music - the band is called Addison Steele from Santa Barbara. They are a type of hybrid early Pearl Jam meets Toad the Wet Sprocket. We are recording on an old Neve desk and the studio has quite a vast mic collection.

I want everything to sound amazing.

 

[chessrock]

Are you recording "Concerto for Hi Hat"?

Do a search for an overhead technique by a certain "recorderman." There you will find all the wisdoem you will ever need to know about the art of recording hi-hat. Not only has this technique effectively been used on the affore-mentioned "Concerto for Hi Hat," but it also boasts the following on it's list of credits:

* I love hi-hats - Joan High and the Jet Hats

* Safety Hat - Men without Hi Hats.

* You high up my hat - Debbie Boone

* Hi Hats off to (Roy) Harper - Led Zeppelin

* Soundtrack to the musical: Hi-Hats off Director: Boris Petroff

 

[jslator]

Are you recording "Concerto for Hi Hat"?

I'd buy an album of Stewart Copeland playing nothing but hi-hat. Maybe that's what he's recording.

 

[chessrock]

Re: Nothing that dramatic.

They are a type of hybrid early Pearl Jam meets Toad the Wet Sprocket.

Nice influences. I'd like to hear them.

I want everything to sound amazing.

That's where it all starts, isn't it?

 

[Robert D]

I'd buy an album of Stewart Copeland playing nothing but hi-hat. Maybe that's what he's recording.

Who incidently is credited for.....you guessed it.......Hi-Hat, on Peter Gabriels "Red Rain". I was just recording some Hi-hat the other day, adding real hat to otherwise sampled drums.
RD

 

[jamiecer]

I've been trying to find the post listed above, but I can't find anything by "recorderman."

I know that this is a very popular technique, at least out in LA. Many of the engineers used it when I was assisting, I just never thought to watch them set up the two mics to figure the distances, placement, ect...

Blue Bear, John Sayers, Recording Engineer - Where are you?

Jamie

 

[PsyCoNo]

All I play is hi-hat. . . you guy arent making fun of me are you? I have happened to compose a VERY NICE piece I (cleverly) entitled. . . . . . . . . . Concerto for Hi-Hat.

 

[Robert D]

Oh yea? Well I perform Hi-hat concerto's....in the nude, though I do have a strategicaly placed cowbell attached to my hi-hat stand.

 

[jamiecer]

I'll be here all week, don't forget to tip your waiters.

Now that the comedy part of my act is over. Is there anybody out there who has ever seen this technique used?

Thanks,

J

 

[littledog]

the place where i originally read the info was at:

www.recording.org

search there.

i've got the thread pasted into a text file at my studio, but i'm not there right now. you could pm me and remind me to repost it here if you can't find it on the above site.

chessrock seems to think it gets too much hi hat, but he's the only one that i've ever heard say that, which leads me to believe perhaps he messed up the technique.

 

[Prizmaxic]

Has anyone seen Andy Kaufman's Hi-Hat bit?

 

[littledog]

OK - I'm back in the studio now. Here it is in Recorderman's own words:


1. Place the "Left" overhead mic directly over the center of the snare at the height of two drum sticks-held end-to-end(from the center of the snare, straight up, to the capsule of the mic).
2. Next; take the drum sticks (still held end-to-end) from the center of the snare over to above your ( i.e." the drummers") right shoulder and place your "right" overhead mic here.
3. Fine tune the placement by using a mic cable and measurinb the distance from the center of the Kick to each of these mics is also equidistant from the kick and snare.
4. listen with headphones and have the drummer lightly hit his kick drum, and adjust the "right" mics angle until the kick is in the middle of your "image".

What this has done is:
1. Place the snare & the kick in the center when you pan these mics hard left and right.
2. Place the overheads in a position which is in-phase with the kick,snare and overheads.
3. balanced the over heads so that the Rack and floor Toms (as well as all cymbals) are correctly balanced.

this is actually a great "picture" of the kit at this point. maybe a hair of Top end (depending on what mics your using) and a little this, and a Kick mic. BUT whatever you add (snare mics, toms, etc) you'll now be inphase. This also makes your snare & toms louder inrelation to the cymbals & is more of a true OH mic set-up (Not just "cymbal" mic's) It may look weird but try it...it truely ROCKS

 

[jamiecer]

This too is a very popular technique, but not the one I was thinking of. Actually, I think that this was first used as part of a three mic set-up by the Beatles. The third mic was possitioned in front of the kick drum, equidistant from all of the others. It makes an equalateral triangle - and sounds great.

What I was talking about is phisically(?) taping the two mics together and putting them in one mic clip just a couple of inches above the hi hat. You then get the right blend by adjusting the fader levels on the console and buss them to on track.


Littledog, thanks for looking out for me.

jamie

 

[Beezoboy]

Jamiecer, that is the oddest thing I have ever heard. Why would one want to do that??? Just to double the hi-hat? I am afraid I don't understand your logic behind it.

Why would you worry about the most natural hi-hat sound??? I am not trying to be difficult, but the hi-hat is a lot less important than say bass drum and snare. I am a drummer and have never heard anyone complement the "natural hi-hat sound" in an album. Really I am not trying to be a dick, I just think there are other things far more important to worry about, especially if they are rock.

If he has a delicate style like Carter Beauford (sp?), from Dave Mathews band, then that is another story. Please elaborate simply on your logic behind the idea.

Beez

 

[jamiecer]

I'm not talking about doubling the Hi-Hat.

Let me ask you this. Have you ever taken a GTR cab (4*10) and placed a different mic on every speaker. A 57 right on the grill, a 421 out by the edge, a condenser mic off axis and so on. If all of the mic's are in phase you can then toy around with the levels and get a great blend between all of them. Now you buss everything to one track. All of these mic's together sound better then if you just put one 57 in the center of one of the speakers, right.

This is the same thing I'm trying to do. Take advantage of the sonic palet of two mics and use them to create ONE SOUND better than I could with just one mic or the other.

Or maybe I'm just crazy.

 

[eeldip]

yes, crazy

just think, two dedicated mics on the high hat, plus two overheads, plus the snare mic...

that high hat is going to be everywhere! phase nightmare!

but if you are up to it. albini does crazy multiple mic stuff like that all the time- tapes two mics together with their diaphrams alligned to create the perfect sound.

too much work for me!

 

[coloradojay]

How'd they do it for Copland anyway?

Speaking of Stuart Copeland, does anyone know how they mic'd his hats for recording? The sound he gets on songs like Message in a Bottle, or One World is Enough, (or anything from the Police days for that matter) sound about as natural as I can imagine. How did they mic his stuff?

 

[Light]

I guess my question is how big is your budget that you want to waste recording time setting up not just one but TWO hi-hat mics. If you have a three month lockout, then I could understand spending the time on it, but if you are paying hourly, make it sound right as quickly as you can, and then get to making music. I have tried just about ever method of recording drums you can imagine, and I have ended up using hi-hat mics in the mix maybe a dozen times, if that many. Feel free to try it if you can justify the time, but understand that it will take time to get the positioning right so that you are not having phase issues which are too serious. Too be honest, I do not find hi-hat mics to be very useful.

Of course, my ideal setup for micing drums is a Neumann M50 just above and just in front of the drummers head, facing straight down. I may or may not add a kick mic (a Beta 52 most often, though RE-20s and M-88s are also great for some types of music) and one or two room mics, which will invariably be SD omnis, hopefully B&K (now DPA) 4006s. Squash the room mics like Momma Cass' throw pillow, and you have the best rock drum sound you will ever hear, I promise.

Of course, this all assumes your drummer can play.

Light

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