Tv

[brendandwyer]

I've been noticing lately while watching television, that on a lot of the MTV ish crap, where there is a studio audience, when the show starts or returns from a break, the clapping starts, and then for some reason the clapping gets really loud, but compressed and then goes back to normal.

WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT. it's not just MTV its a lot of other shows

 

[lomky]

Maybe it is that the audience clap light goes on, then the ones on the ball start clapping, then the rest of the audience says "oh everyones clapping, I better start clapping/clap louder" at which point the compressor kicks in or the engineer is riding the levels.

Just a thought, I have no idea.

 

[bennychico11]

this doesn't just happen on MTV, but also on Comedy Central a lot (typically on the live action shows like the Daily Show and Chappelle Show).
Basically, and in technical jargon straight from the horses mouth....
the top engineers at MTV found there is a bug in their Miranda digital MCR switchers that creats that flanging/phasing effect in the embedded AES audio. It's not an increase in volume really, but rather a phasing of the audio. This happens during a video down-stream key dissolve transition in. Not when the key was in, and not on the transition out, but only on the transition in. So a few seconds into every Viacom show segment after the commercial break when a ratings graphic is transitioned in, the audio was distorted like this for the duration of the transition.
Comedy Central also encodes these bumpers of their programs to be picked up by ratings tracking services as well however they don't do it as well as other channels do.
It's not in the final mix and it's not in the original recording, it's on the broadcast end.

 

[FALKEN]

I have heard that phasing many times on comedy central and wondered what was going on... weird

 

[giraffe]

comedy central is the worst!!

i always just assumed it was because of the retarded level that their audio comes out at.

is any channel louder than comedy central?

 

[dgatwood]

Basically, and in technical jargon straight from the horses mouth....
the top engineers at MTV found there is a bug in their Miranda digital MCR switchers that creats that flanging/phasing effect in the embedded AES audio. It's not an increase in volume really, but rather a phasing of the audio. This happens during a video down-stream key dissolve transition in.

If I had to put up with that crap, it would be straight back to analog switchers. Life's too short.

Not when the key was in, and not on the transition out, but only on the transition in. So a few seconds into every Viacom show segment after the commercial break when a ratings graphic is transitioned in, the audio was distorted like this for the duration of the transition.

Are you sure the keyer isn't doing something asinine like putting an ultra-bright white band outside the viewable area during that transition that would interfere with the audio when encoded for broadcast or something silly? Oh, a ratings graphic. Yeah, that's probably a clamping problem. Those are white. White titles brought in at master control have to be pre-clamped to about 0.7 to 0.8 vpp (I forget the exact value) or else that happens.

Comedy Central also encodes these bumpers of their programs to be picked up by ratings tracking services as well however they don't do it as well as other channels do.
It's not in the final mix and it's not in the original recording, it's on the broadcast end.

What really sucked were the Disney Channel free preview weekends back when they used to do those. The supers were done by a CG that wasn't clamped at 100 IRE. It sounded like a 60 Hz hum was introduced into the audio every time they brought up the title because it bled into the audio so badly....

 

[dgatwood]

I have heard that phasing many times on comedy central and wondered what was going on... weird

Bear in mind that there are multiple audience mics and house mics and that, if memory serves, they'll usually bring up audience mics (possibly one at a time) first to pick up applause, then partially bring up house mics (boundary, probably) as a backup for the performers' mics, then bring up the performers' mics. As soon as the boundary mics go up, you'll get phasing, as you're picking up substantially the same sounds from a different location. Then, they'll bring them down as soon as the performers' mics show level, since they are only there in case something goes wrong right off the bat.

That's not saying there aren't problems with the switchers in their master control oversaturating and getting audio bleed during their supers. Normally that results in more of a slight buzz or whine, which will interact with applause and sound somewhat phasing-like. That said, I'd be surprised if that were the sole cause of that phasing.

 

[brendandwyer]

holy crap. i'm SO glad that the answer was amazingly more technical than "lou the sound guy bumped the fader while napping."

 

[bennychico11]

Are you sure the keyer isn't doing something asinine like putting an ultra-bright white band outside the viewable area during that transition that would interfere with the audio when encoded for broadcast or something silly?

it's possible. again this is just what I heard is the problem with MTV. Comedy Central could be something similar.

Bear in mind that there are multiple audience mics and house mics and that, if memory serves, they'll usually bring up audience mics (possibly one at a time) first to pick up applause, then partially bring up house mics (boundary, probably) as a backup for the performers' mics, then bring up the performers' mics. As soon as the boundary mics go up, you'll get phasing, as you're picking up substantially the same sounds from a different location. Then, they'll bring them down as soon as the performers' mics show level, since they are only there in case something goes wrong right off the bat.

This was one of the thoughts I had. However, the problem doesn't slowly come up but rather happens as if somone is hitting a switch. Also, the mixing engineers weren't finding the problem in their mixes. They were saying everything sounded fine before sending it out, then when they heard the problem as well they freaked out and quickly checked their mixes and masters to make sure it wasn't on their end.

 

[dgatwood]

This was one of the thoughts I had. However, the problem doesn't slowly come up but rather happens as if somone is hitting a switch. Also, the mixing engineers weren't finding the problem in their mixes. They were saying everything sounded fine before sending it out, then when they heard the problem as well they freaked out and quickly checked their mixes and masters to make sure it wasn't on their end.

ROTFL. Wouldn't surprise me. I don't remember the last time I saw a master control super that didn't make me want to throw something at the screen.

If the networks just stop doing those horrible animated things with sound effects.... Talk about making me want desperately to change the channel... and ensuring that I look to see what it is just so I can vow to never watch the show they're advertising....

 

[MessianicDreams]

holy crap. i'm SO glad that the answer was amazingly more technical than "lou the sound guy bumped the fader while napping."

don't listen to them.





you cats got it allll wrong. it's cause the show producers really want the audience makin' a lot of noise, so that it sounds like everyone's having a great time.


so they got these lil' men, leprechaun-like, but from Mexico (cheap labour and all that jazz) to run around poking people with these sticks. thats why suddenly the crowd gets louder, cause the producers have opened up the Mexichaun cages up and these lil devils are running around pokin' people with their sticks.

 

[cpl_crud]

Further to the guys saying that hte mix eingineers don't notice the rise:
I've done a few mixes for TV- If you ask any questions about what's going on downstream of your console you'll usually get told the "shut the fuck up", but usually in slightly harsher language...

I doubt that it's the mix engineer, the tracking data sounds like a reasonable exucse, consdiering that the entire A/V signal will be running through the same master mixer before going to air...

If you had the access ,you could compare the on-air levels to the master recording.

It could also be a delay caused by switching from tape to live coming out of the ads/last show/whatever...

 

[FALKEN]

there's another noise I hear on tv all the time..where it doesn't belong...it sounds like a fax machine or a modem sort of...but like moaning...sort of like when the langoliers are coming for you... i don't know how else to describe it...

 

[brendandwyer]

on fox sports channel, there is always a series of touch tones in the end of the channel, and then back from commercial. ALways during the EPL games. ANNOYING

 

[bennychico11]

on fox sports channel, there is always a series of touch tones in the end of the channel, and then back from commercial. ALways during the EPL games. ANNOYING

it's Fox Soccer Channel

but yes, these are DTMF cue tones (Dual Tone Multiple Frequencies). These work much like touchtone phones do when you press the numbers on the telephone to navigate menus when you call up the bank. Each number/letter respresents a combination of two pure sine waves at different frequencies that result in a new complex wave form. On the receiving end, these pair of tones are then decoded and the number you pressed can be figured out. Harmonics are also avoided this way.
In the case of Fox Soccer Channel, they are more than likely sending out a signal to tell the local carrier that they can now insert local commercials if they want. And then you hear it again when the program is ready to come back in. If the local carrier doesn't have any local commercials to play, then you see the regular commercials that are on that network. Like the original MTV question, the sound isn't supposed to be heard by you. Either the local carrier has something setup wrong or they just don't really care to fix it. Could also be the tones are bleeding over to the audio pairs that are supposed to be carrying it. Usually 1-2 is program and 3-4 is spanish, cue tones, etc. In the UK I believe they use a Cue Dot instead to sync national and regional feeds.

 

[brendandwyer]

ok.


what?


GOAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no really, thanks, i truly didn't realize how much went into television audio.

 

[bennychico11]

no really, thanks, i truly didn't realize how much went into television audio.

oh, there is a TON more that goes into it.
Unlike the music world, doing audio for video requires so much more work because you're also including the video signal. So sync issues become so much more important and simple things like audio/video bleed come into play a lot more. The music side of recording has it's own problems, but in my opinion, audio for video is more complicated. Luckily in the post world they've established standards of sorts that helps somewhat.

 

[dgatwood]

In the case of Fox Soccer Channel, they are more than likely sending out a signal to tell the local carrier that they can now insert local commercials if they want. And then you hear it again when the program is ready to come back in. If the local carrier doesn't have any local commercials to play, then you see the regular commercials that are on that network. Like the original MTV question, the sound isn't supposed to be heard by you. Either the local carrier has something setup wrong or they just don't really care to fix it. Could also be the tones are bleeding over to the audio pairs that are supposed to be carrying it. Usually 1-2 is program and 3-4 is spanish, cue tones, etc. In the UK I believe they use a Cue Dot instead to sync national and regional feeds.

Wow, how 20th century of them.

Seriously, though, I thought that was usually done either through time code or through nastygrams tucked into the VBI or HBI....