Tuning problems help please

[ggunn]

Sorry to yell, but there are SOOOOOOO many things which could be the problem. The gears could be slipping (oh yes they could, trust me they could), but that is one of the least likely things to be happening. More likely, you are wrapping too many wraps around the post, or the nut is sticking, or you have a bad set of strings.

After that, learn to tune by ear. There is not a tuner in the world which is worth one shit in getting a guitar to play in tune. Here's what works for me: [snip]

Too many wraps around the post? The only way it comes to mind that that could be a problem is if you wrap it so many times that you have more than one layer of wraps and the second layer is squeezing down in between the first, or maybe if you have wrapped it so that the last (bottom) wrap is squeezed between the wrap above it and the headstock. Failing that, the more wraps the better. Make sure your wrapping goes around the post at least three times, especially for the small strings.

As to electronic tuners, I use them and they work just fine for me, but watch the meter, not the LEDs. The resolution of the LED readout is far coarser than what you can get from a swing needle. You said, I believe, that you were using the built in POD tuner. I did that for a (short) while and didn't get very good results. Get a tuner with both LEDS and meter; use the LEDs to get close, and then the meter to fine tune.

I'm still betting on string squeeze in the nut. Yes, your intonation has to be set correctly and your strings have to be fresh for a guitar to play in tune up the neck, but I believe you also said that it would be in tune for a while, and then not. That almost has to be string squeeze. (Or slippage of the tuners, which almost never happens, or slippage around the post, which if you wrap three times or more, won't be a problem)

I have been playing guitar for over 40 years, and I do most of my own setup stuff; it ain't rocket science, despite what a lot of guitar techs would have you believe. Problems like this are usually something simple, don't trash your guitar just yet. Get a bone nut cut and set for the strings you use (this is something I would not attempt to do myself). Put on new strings and get them to set your intonation for you. Stretch the strings real good and "play them in" for a couple of days. Betcha five bucks it solves your prob.

 

[jimistone]

Too many wraps around the post? The only way it comes to mind that that could be a problem is if you wrap it so many times that you have more than one layer of wraps and the second layer is squeezing down in between the first, or maybe if you have wrapped it so that the last (bottom) wrap is squeezed between the wrap above it and the headstock. Failing that, the more wraps the better. Make sure your wrapping goes around the post at least three times, especially for the small strings.

As to electronic tuners, I use them and they work just fine for me, but watch the meter, not the LEDs. The resolution of the LED readout is far coarser than what you can get from a swing needle. You said, I believe, that you were using the built in POD tuner. I did that for a (short) while and didn't get very good results. Get a tuner with both LEDS and meter; use the LEDs to get close, and then the meter to fine tune.

I'm still betting on string squeeze in the nut. Yes, your intonation has to be set correctly and your strings have to be fresh for a guitar to play in tune up the neck, but I believe you also said that it would be in tune for a while, and then not. That almost has to be string squeeze. (Or slippage of the tuners, which almost never happens, or slippage around the post, which if you wrap three times or more, won't be a problem)

I have been playing guitar for over 40 years, and I do most of my own setup stuff; it ain't rocket science, despite what a lot of guitar techs would have you believe. Problems like this are usually something simple, don't trash your guitar just yet. Get a bone nut cut and set for the strings you use (this is something I would not attempt to do myself). Put on new strings and get them to set your intonation for you. Stretch the strings real good and "play them in" for a couple of days. Betcha five bucks it solves your prob.

I agree that if you wrap the string around the post a bunch of times...tuning is shot.
When im putting on a new string, I put the string through (the "slot" or the"hole"..depending on what type of tuning post you have) and give myself just enough slack to make on wrap around the post...by the time I bring it up to picth and stretch it, there are 2 wraps around the post...thats plenty.
My strat never goes out of tune, unless I bump the keys.

My bet is that the Epi keys are not up to snuff...get you a decent set of keys and I bet that will fix the problem (new keys are usually the 1st upgrade on Epiphones...I have never seen one that does stay in tune, with the original keys). You may need a new nut too, like ggunn said. No big deal, nuts are cheap. You should be able to get a nice set of grover keys for $35 to $40....they are worth every penny if your present keys suck.

Be sure the strings on the guitar are not "dead" (old and oxidized)
Be sure the intonation is set properly also
Be sure the pickup magnets are not too close to your strings....these 3 things will cause tuning problems.
my 2 cents

 

[EddieRay]

Like many have said - put new strings on your instrument, play them in for a day or two and then test the 12th fret harmonic against the fretted note at 12th fret.

If they sound the same you're OK. If they're off then the chances are you need to get the intonation of the instrument looked at.

Bear in mind that old strings gerenrally get sharper as you travel up the neck. This is why you will find dead strings impossible to tune. They can be in tune in one place and off in another.

??? I have never heard this before and have never experienced it first hand. How is it possible for a string to vibrate faster as it ages? If that were true, many intonation problems the world over are being misdiagnosed.

 

[ggunn]

I agree that if you wrap the string around the post a bunch of times...tuning is shot.

Why would that happen? If there are not enough wraps, then there might not be enough friction between the string and the peg to keep it from slipping, but what's the down side of "too many", as long as you don't trap the part of the string that goes out to the bridge between the wraps and the headstock, or put so much on that you are stacking wraps?

As a matter of fact, an article in Guitar Player I read some years back advised to put enough wraps so that the string pulls as low on the peg as you can get it without squeezing the string between the wraps and the headstock. Supposedly that damps parasitic vibrations to the peg and maximizes the downward pressure on the nut, which enhances sustain. I haven't made a study of it myself, but it makes sense; it's the same line of thinking that says to screw the tailpiece on a Les Paul all the way down, which I also do.

On my high E string on my Strat (a '61 with the cheap stock tuners and floating bridge), I wrap it maybe 10 or 15 times to get it low on the peg, and it is the most tuning retentive guitar I have ever owned. Sometimes I go a week of playing it every night without adjusting a tuner.

YMMV, of course.

 

[Imaduck]

??? I have never heard this before and have never experienced it first hand. How is it possible for a string to vibrate faster as it ages? If that were true, many intonation problems the world over are being misdiagnosed.

First off, old strings are the #1 reason for intonation problems. ALWAYS change strings before pursuing other routes of intonation

To give an example, one day I was playing my Rickenbacker and out of nowhere noticed a buzz. I've never had that guitar buzz and the intonation was knocked off as well. On closer inspection I noticed around the first fret the low E string was worn in one specific area, making the areas around it more dense. A quick change of strings and then there was no more buzz.

So basically, what it means is, it's possible for a string to vibrate oddly due to uneven wear. A string only uniformely vibrates if it has a uniform density. As different portions of the string wear their density can change, causing a slew of frequency inconsistancies and a physics problem that I don't feel like calculating out.

 

[Imaduck]

Why would that happen? If there are not enough wraps, then there might not be enough friction between the string and the peg to keep it from slipping, but what's the down side of "too many", as long as you don't trap the part of the string that goes out to the bridge between the wraps and the headstock, or put so much on that you are stacking wraps?

I think the idea is that if you wrap it around too many times you run the risk of forming little extra humps of string through each of the wraps that later come out as you're playing and therefore cause your strings to go flat. Does is this actually come into play? Honestly, I have no idea, but I've heard it mentioned many times. I just make sure that my strings don't overlap and usually go for about 3 wraps around the post, though this is mainly so I can play in drop tunings if I want to. I also don't believe in knots as they seem to cause slippage problems and, in my opinion, are completely unneccissary.

 

[ibanezrocks]

with too many wraps it takes the string a lot longer to pull tight to the tuning peg. so after you tune it all up the string will pull itself tighter around the peg to equalize the pressure on the rest of the string, meaning it will go flat, the more wraps you have the longer this will go on.
dont tie knots, they just slip more than anything, start with one winding around the post above where the string goes through, then go below for 2 windings, this will cause the one above and below where the string goes through the hole to pull up tight to the string and hold it from slipping. 3 winds is good for wound strings, 4 for unwound.

 

[Alexrkstr]

The strings I have on are not more than 2 weeks old...

Do you guys think a Gibson FADED Les Paul would hold the tone tune better?

 

[ez_willis]

The strings I have on are not more than 2 weeks old...

Do you guys think a Gibson FADED Les Paul would hold the tone tune better?

I'm gonna ask this one more time. Have you changed the strings since you brought the guitar home from GC?

 

[ez_willis]

You know what, forget it. Yes, you should buy a new guitar. The new one will stay in tune perfectly. Good luck. willis.

 

[Alexrkstr]

More Explicit?

I'm gonna ask this one more time. Have you changed the strings since you brought the guitar home from GC?

DUDE!

I can I be more explicit? the strings are not more than 2 weeks old... the guitar is 2 years old. Yes I have changed the strings... several times... always the same problem...

Thanks!

 

[crazydoc]

So your strings have been on for a few weeks. If you tune the guitar up at night (assuming you're just tweaking it without any major tension changes), let it sit without playing it overnight, and come back the next day, before you play it, is it out of tune?

 

[ez_willis]

DUDE!

I can I be more explicit? the strings are not more than 2 weeks old... the guitar is 2 years old. Yes I have changed the strings... several times... always the same problem...

Thanks!

I think you mean specific, but anyways, you didn't mention that the guitar is 2 years old anywhere in the thread until your last post, and since I don't know you, and since I'm not psychic, I had know idea your guitar was 2 YEARS OLD. Secondly, chill bro, it's getting better all the time.

Oh, I almost forgot, haha, you've been playing a guitar that won't stay in tune for two years!

 

[Light]

. . .

Too many wraps around the post?

. . .

Anything more than two or three wraps around the post, and you run into problems with slack on the post. This leads to strings loosening up as you play. This is exactly what locking tuners are designed to eliminate, by the by. Plus, it is just sloppy to have too many wraps around the posts.

And no, set up work is not rocket science. But it IS much more complex than you probably think. Bring your guitar to a really great repair person sometime, and the setup will blow you away. I know, I see people like you all the time walk in and play a guitar we have setup for them (usually in the course of some more extensive repair), and they ALWAYS say something to the effect of, "Wow, this plays really great. How did you do that? I mean, I usually setup my own guitars, but I can't make `em play like this."

You’re not going to get the level of work that comes out of our shop by doing it yourself, and you are not going to get it at the local Banjo Mart. You just don't do enough of it, and Banjo Mart hires kids just out of school who don't have anything like the kind of experience that your need. We work on about 2000 guitars a year, and you do what? Maybe 12, or 24 if you are really picky and have a lot of guitars. That just is not enough to learn how to do it.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[jimistone]

I agree that if you wrap the string around the post a bunch of times...tuning is shot.

Why would that happen? If there are not enough wraps, then there might not be enough friction between the string and the peg to keep it from slipping, but what's the down side of "too many", as long as you don't trap the part of the string that goes out to the bridge between the wraps and the headstock, or put so much on that you are stacking wraps?

As a matter of fact, an article in Guitar Player I read some years back advised to put enough wraps so that the string pulls as low on the peg as you can get it without squeezing the string between the wraps and the headstock. Supposedly that damps parasitic vibrations to the peg and maximizes the downward pressure on the nut, which enhances sustain. I haven't made a study of it myself, but it makes sense; it's the same line of thinking that says to screw the tailpiece on a Les Paul all the way down, which I also do.

On my high E string on my Strat (a '61 with the cheap stock tuners and floating bridge), I wrap it maybe 10 or 15 times to get it low on the peg, and it is the most tuning retentive guitar I have ever owned. Sometimes I go a week of playing it every night without adjusting a tuner.

YMMV, of course.

Well, I was talking about wrapping the string around the peg until you are stacking wraps on top of wraps....you will have instability in your tuning even after the strings stretch. That has been my experiance anyway.

The "cheap stock tuners" on a '61 strat are very good (alot better than "cheap stock tuners" on modern strats IMO). If they are Klusons (my '66 has those) the gear ratio is much higher than modern tuners. Those old tuners had alot higher gear ratios than the new ones (barely turning the key affects pitch dramatically)...its harder to get the exact pitch, but, once you get there that sucker doesn't change. On the modern tuners a turn on the key dosen't effect the pitch nearly as much and its esier to get on the exact pitch....but...they don't hold the tune as well. Its a tradeoff:
The lower gear ratios, of modern tuners, make tuning easier but don't hoild the tuning as well
The higher gear ratios, of vintage tuners, make tuning harder but hold the tuning like a rock.

I like the old high gear ratio Klusons. Its like tuning a violin, but once you get there you stay there until you change the strings again.

 

[Alexrkstr]

I think you mean specific, but anyways, you didn't mention that the guitar is 2 years old anywhere in the thread until your last post, and since I don't know you, and since I'm not psychic, I had know idea your guitar was 2 YEARS OLD. Secondly, chill bro, it's getting better all the time.

Oh, I almost forgot, haha, you've been playing a guitar that won't stay in tune for two years!

Willis,

I did mean explicit (Fully and clearly expressed; leaving nothing implied.).... "Secondly"... I'm cool, I was joking

Guys,

OK, so the guitar stays in tune but it never really reaches a "good tune" It sounds OK but not Great. That is the problem.
Also.. for as long as I've had the guitar I've had the idea that it's a low end guitar so why expect more of it... it's an Epi LP-100....

Anyone know of a good place to take my guitar in South Carolina?

 

[Codmate]

When you fit new strings you should always give them a tug at the 12th fret.

Wind the string into tune, then tug it gently at around the 12th fret until it very tight.
Let it back gently - do not just let it go and have it slap back against the neck.
The string will now have gone flat. Wind it back into tune and repeat until it stays in tune.

If it's not dead stings or not knowing what to do with new ones there may be something wrong with the intonation. You may be able to fix this with the old tune-o-matic bridge:
http://www.gibson.com/reference/adjustments/oa2.html

 

[ggunn]

Anything more than two or three wraps around the post, and you run into problems with slack on the post. This leads to strings loosening up as you play. This is exactly what locking tuners are designed to eliminate, by the by. Plus, it is just sloppy to have too many wraps around the posts.

And no, set up work is not rocket science. But it IS much more complex than you probably think. Bring your guitar to a really great repair person sometime, and the setup will blow you away. I know, I see people like you all the time walk in and play a guitar we have setup for them (usually in the course of some more extensive repair), and they ALWAYS say something to the effect of, "Wow, this plays really great. How did you do that? I mean, I usually setup my own guitars, but I can't make `em play like this."

You’re not going to get the level of work that comes out of our shop by doing it yourself, and you are not going to get it at the local Banjo Mart. You just don't do enough of it, and Banjo Mart hires kids just out of school who don't have anything like the kind of experience that your need. We work on about 2000 guitars a year, and you do what? Maybe 12, or 24 if you are really picky and have a lot of guitars. That just is not enough to learn how to do it.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

I have had my Strat set up by professional, respected guitar techs. They (mostly) did a great job, and a lot (not all) of what they did, I can do myself. I've been playing the same two guitars for 25 years and I know them very well. There is a tradeoff; those guys work on lots of guitars, that's true, but I have had these particular guitars in my hands for 25 years.

I don't know your shop and I certainly don't mean to cast any aspersions, but even experienced guitar techs can get it wrong. For example, I DID have a lot of tuning probs with my Strat when I first got it, and I brought it to a tech for help. He went on and on about how I needed to set the spring tension on the floating bridge assembly just so, and tweak the string height, etc. He couldn't have been more wrong; the problem was at the other end of the guitar. It was excessive friction on the nut and string T, and I fixed it myself.

It could very well be that some folks run into tuning probs with too many wraps, but I don't. I wrap my high E on my Strat and Les Paul 10 or more times (never overlapping), and I don't have tuning probs with either of them. It's possible that I have to stretch them a little more before they stop drifting flat, but it's no big deal.

YMMV.

 

[Light]

I have had my Strat set up by professional, respected guitar techs. They (mostly) did a great job, and a lot (not all) of what they did, I can do myself. I've been playing the same two guitars for 25 years and I know them very well. There is a tradeoff; those guys work on lots of guitars, that's true, but I have had these particular guitars in my hands for 25 years.

I don't know your shop and I certainly don't mean to cast any aspersions, but even experienced guitar techs can get it wrong.

Yes, we might not get it perfect for you, but any reputable shop will keep working with you to get it right as a part of the cost of doing a setup. We certainly tell everyone who gets work done that if, once they get it home and play it in a familiar environment, they have any questions or problems, to give us a call or bring it back in. We only ask that you be reasonable about the time frame. Come back in a week or two, and we're fine, but if you come back in a year and say, "it was never right," you’re paying. People are different, and though we only ever have maybe 5% or so of our customers bring there guitars back, part of being a good repair person is acknowledging that fact.

And it is entirely possible that PART of your problem was the bridge, but most of the time the problem with trems is at both ends of the guitar. He should have known that.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[ggunn]

And it is entirely possible that PART of your problem was the bridge, but most of the time the problem with trems is at both ends of the guitar. He should have known that.

But it wasn't. He just looked at it and played it; he never did a bit of work on it. His assertion about the spring tension was just plain wrong; I have had three springs, four, and five, claw config and straight, with the block position close to one side, close to the other, and in the middle. None of those variations had the slightest impact on it staying in tune. Putting a graphite T on it and getting the nut cut right, plus a little graphite and teflon in the notches when I change strings completely fixed it.

Now, I don't mean to try to put you in a position of defending some guy you don't know; I'm sure that you run a great guitar shop. He had a very respectable business, too, and was well respected around town, and for the most part did great work. It's just that his high school education and years of experience left him with some misconceptions about the physics of the instrument.

I have helped other Strat players with this problem (it's very common with floating bridge guitars when the block is not pulled all the way to the body), and the problem has always, 100% of the time, been with the nut and string T(s) and never with the bridge itself. I'm not saying that it couldn't be, just that I've never seen it, and I freely concede that I've not worked on nearly as many guitars as you have.

Peace,